<from a drift in Winter Agora>

Here's an item about spice in the extreme.

Some points of discussion:

Spice around the land-- what kinds grow in your area?  Are there taste 
preferences in different areas?  For instance, the further south you 
go, the more the folks seem to tolerate hotter spice.  For example, 
cuisine near Mexico seems to be much hotter than what is traditional 
fare in New England.  Where does the Midwest fall?  I'm in the Yakima 
Valley, which has a heavy Hispanic population, so I think folks here 
are used to spicy food.  (And so I laugh when I read items from folks 
who just don't do hot.)

We've seen some pretty interesting names for hot sauces.  List some of 
the ones you've seen.

Powder or sauce, during cooking or splash it on afterwards-- which do 
you prefer?

67 responses total.

Depends on where in the 'midwest' you go.  I know of 'snot running out
yer nose sweat pouring down yer back ringburner' hot dishes served at
'alley' restaurants in chinatown.  And I know of 'szechuan' restaurant
in mississippi river town that owner describes food as "well, it is
better than hamburgers" - a 'hot' dish has a little black pepper in it.
While it is true that the equatorial areas seem to have hotter food
there very well may be a simple and practical reason for it.  The
'chili' grows better there, prior the refridgeration the meat spoiled
faster, and capsaicinoids have a number of beneficial effects not the
least of which is as a preservative.  My 'fave' hot sauce is cholula but
judging from the number of different hot sauces in the kitchen it would
be hard to imagine there was a singular.  It runs the range from the
traditional Tabasco(R) to indonesian, thai, indian, afghan, paki,
carribean, belize, korean to fermented hand ground chinese suspendedin
chili oil...  
Powder - ranges from white pepper to various varieties of hungarian
paprika...  During cooking or after depends on what I am cooking.  The
contents of a microwaved scrambled-egg-sausage-potato patty 'tv dinner'
doused with cholula and wrapped in malaysian onion-flat-bread makes a
nice,cheap, and quick 'breakfast burrito'.  

(erk, no I don't grind up chinese persons...peppers!)

resp:1  yes, you're right.. capsids are healthy for you.  I'm sure a 
few of you are familiar with cayenne caplets available at the health 
store or health section of your supermarket or drug store; one benefit 
that I seem to remember is improved circulation.  The other, I think, 
is that it seems to keep the juices flowing that speeds up recovery 
time from a cold.

Is Chinese hot mustard really Chinese?  That stuff burns right up 
through your nostrils and doesn't stay in your mouth.  Mix *that* with 
a chile pepper.

Describe cholula?

White pepper-- interesting.  I'm not really partial to it, but it has 
a much milder flavor than black peppercorns.  I suppose I need to 
figure out where it's more complimentary, but I enjoy bold tastes.  
What's particular about Hungarian paprika?  I never noticed general 
paprika to have much of a flavor.

On the subject of chiles, one should note that you don't necessarily 
need to put them into a sauce.  Diced, they cook and infuse flavor 
just fine into meats.  One of my favorite things is to add jalapeno 
slices to a Hawaiian-style pizza (i.e., backbacon and pineapple).  
They also do well on a hamburger.

Types of chiles are wide and varied, of course.

The jalapeno should be bright green.  Little brown lines that score 
the chile aren't bad; they indicate that the seeds have grown hotter.  
You see, the fire is in the seeds.

Serrano peppers are red and slightly dark, and are about the same size 
as jalapenos.  Supposedly, they are a bit sweeter than jalapenos, but 
I'd say they have just as much bite.

The habanero, which many of you recognize as one of the hottest chiles 
in the world, is a brilliant orange.  It packs a whallop.  A 6 oz can 
should last you about a month or so.  If you buy them fresh, well.. 
never cooked with them.

The cayenne is pretty common and is also red, but is slimmer and a bit 
smaller than the serrano.  It's also relatively mild compared to 
jalapenos with the seeds in them.

There are others which I'm sure you can add.

'Salsa picante,' or hot sauce, is pretty varied as far as Mexican 
cooking goes, but I'm sure that stems back to home recipes.  The 
restaurants out here usually use tomatoes, onions, cilantro, and 
jalapenos.  Chunky styles follow that to a degree, but may add corn or 
bell peppers.  Some home styles add pineapple, apples..

Tabasco and other drip sauces tend to stick to just chiles and 
powders.  You've got your cayenne for Tabasco and Louisana styles, 
jalapeno, and habanero.  The latter often seems to be a gavacho gag 
gift.  The fun goes from there..even barbeque and steak sauces have 
hot varieties.

Curry is punchy, and I love rice so much more with it.  I doubt I cook 
anything near authentically Indian.  With chicken in a yogurt sauce of 
various spices, I add chutney, which can come relatively spicy.

whoops-- resp:1 and resp:2--  According to the _Joy of Cooking_ (2nd 
ed.), p. 576, white pepper and black pepper are essentially the same, 
as the former comes from fully ripened peppercorns (the black outer 
shell is buffed off), and the latter comes from underripe berries that 
are fermented and sun-dried.

The book is excellent in describing spices, and it gives you an idea 
of how the myriad of sauces are put together.

Cayenne, if it's being taken for health benefits, should not be taken in
capsules.  That can lead to stomach cramps once the capsule dissolves. 
Some people advocate straight cayenne powder in hot water, but I like to
mix mine with instant tomato soup.

The only mustard I use is Coleman's dry mustard, prepared fresh for
use. It has some kick. I don't know the source for what is served
in Chinese restaurants, though. 

i love spicy. i use tobasco, dried red chilis chopped up, and the hottest i
have experienced are those tiny bright orange peppers (i dont know the name).
they are so hot that after chopping one for a soup once the juice actually
burned my fingers so badly i had to sleep with an ice pack in my hands. the
fire is actually in the juice - which is soaked up by the seeds...
i like cayenne, but use it for flavor, not so much for spice - i dont find
it to be that hot. i took my parents who were visiting from the south, to a
thai restaurant that makes my favorite tom yom (sp?) and insisted they try
it. i didnt think it would make their eyes water and give them the runs ..

I like spicy foods, too. My wife is Mexican, and I really like Mexican 
food. Moles (pronounced moh-lays) are very good, but not often found in 
Mexican restaurants around here. I sometimes make chicken or turkey 
mole. The Dona Maria mole that you can find at Meijer is actually 
pretty good.

I also like a lot of the Szechwan dishes, too. I used to go to San 
Francisco on business a couple of times a year and made it a point to 
go to a place called Brandy Ho's. The food there can be very hot, but 
man is it good. I forget exactly what they called it, but they served 
some kind of spicy ham that was really good.

that korean chili paste is good too.

  Lately I've been eating often at the newly opened second branch of a
  Seattle restaurant that decided to open a storefront on the Eastside,
  Malaysian Satay Hut.  It's an uninspiring name (is the word "Hut" in
  a restaurant name ever an enticement?) but the food is inexpensive,
  pretty tasty, and a change of pace (for me, at least..)

  It seems to be pretty authentic and enthusiastically supported by
  lots of SE-Asian-looking customers.  The food is a bit like Thai,
  though with less reliance on coconut milk than typical at an American
  Thai restaurant, and seems to show a fair amount of Indian and Chinese
  influence too, though whether that's a property of the cuisine or just
  of the menu at this restaurant I wouldn't venture to guess.

  I just wish the peanut sauce they serve with their satay had a bit more
  kick.  I've got a great recipe for satay and peanut sauce and after
  making it at home most restaurants' offerings just seem too timid.

Here's an interesting story to do with spices.  

My father, formerly a high school applied science teacher, used to be 
a big practical joker in high school and college, so, if anybody knows 
how to catch a lunch thief, it is him.

Apparently, during the time before I entered high school, they had an 
episode where several lockers would be found devested of their owner's 
lunches.  Then, later, the lunches would be found in the trash, sans 
the desserts.  My father guessed, as many of you will have, that some 
student was breaking into the lockers and stealing the lunches and, as 
many of the affected students were in some of his classes, he devised 
a way of, not only catching the guy, but of teaching him not to take 
other people's lunches.

The first part of the plot involved getting each of the students who 
regularly got hit by the thief to arrive to classes early, bringing 
two lunches.  One lunch absolutely HAD to have a twinkie in it.  The 
other would be left safely in my father's office, where the thief 
would never even know it existed.  Then, my father took the twinkies, 
steamed open the packages and carefully sliced off the bottom, then 
scooped out the filling.  He then mixed the filling with a concoction 
of spices which included cayenne pepper and chinese hot mustard.  
Replacing the doctored filling and the twinkie bottoms, the packages 
were expertly resealed and the lunches put in the lockers.

Now, phase two, the lunches turned up missing at the usual time so it 
was only a miatter of seconds to wait for the outcome.  According to 
my dad, once he ate those twinkies, the first thing the thief would 
feel would be the cayenne pepper eating his tongue, then, just as that 
sensation *began* to die off, the chinese hot mustard would kick in.  
any of you who has eaten chinese hot mustard, knows that it has a 
habit of burning nasal passages.  Considering the large amount of 
twinkies the guy ate that day, he must really have been in hurt.  The 
beauty of this whole plot is that drinking water only makes the 
hurting worse.

Needless to say, they caught their thief as he was sprinting in the 
direction of the boys bathroom.  Also needless to say, everyone 
learned a valuable lesson and that school never had another lunch 
thief while my dad was teaching there, that I'm aware of.

re#6: Funny that you should mention Coleman's.  It might scare you to
know that it is the prefered dry mustard powder in our household.  I
don't know how they do it but it travels well and stays fresh.  I had
not even considered mustard to be a hot sauce.  Most good chinese
restaurants will prepare mustard daily from powder - and many in the US
I have confirmed use an 'ancient chinese secret' -

Odd story.  Whats-her-name thought I was just sorta odd in that every
time we would go back to my home for a visit I had to stop by "Kelly's
Drive-In and Bronco Bar" - in the industrial district near the airport.
I would always order double fried won-ton which comes with a mustard-soy
sauce dipping sauce.  I once asked (long before I had even met
whats-her-name) what the mustard was and it was Coleman's!  It was front
page news in the both city papers when it announced it was closing and
in both stories it mentioned that folk passing through would make it
a point to stop by for the wontons. They had postcards and money from
around the world pasted up by the register but I just always had figured
it was just part of the odd atmosphere of the chinese
diner/drive-in/bar.  Turns out it was internationally 'known' dive.
(Also learned the Chin-Ho Kelly character in the TV series _Hawaii
Five-O_ noted for its 'inside jokes' was a send up to Kelly's as the
owner's name was Ho Chin and I sure never connected the two even though
I knew the owner.)  Anyways, I was once in a chinese restaurant and
noticed fried wonton on the menu and when served whipped up a sauce of
soy and mustard and the owner noticed and walked over and asked me if 
I was from hawaii.  This was in Las Cruces, New Mexico.  Explained that
the habit of that sauce was unique to hawaii based on working as a chef
in chinese restaurants all over the US for 30 years or so.  I have
observed the same phenomena and usually ask and its either yes, or 'no,
but I lived/served/studied there for some years'.

re#3:  Cholula is a sauce of red and piquin peppers, vinegar, some other
unknown stuff.  Originally introduced by Cuervo (tequila) to the US via
Sam's Club in a complicated swap deal during the devaluation of the old
mexican peso years ago.  Its the one in the plain glass bottle with the
round pinewood cap with the lady on the front.  There might be some
chipolte in it, but it does seem to have a unique earthy taste.  It also
etches concrete as the Sam's Club in Cicero found out the hard way.

Damn, just for grins I went to another browser window and they
have a web page (Duh!)  http://www.cholula.com   I just ordered a case
of 12 of the 8-oz bottles for half the cost each compared to the 5oz.
that I bought at the supermarket.  What a deal.

There seems to be two varieties of hungarian paprika, yellow and red.
Dunno what exactly much about it, but they are different flavor.

re#4:  Didn't know that about white pepper.  I never thought much about
it just considered it two different spices. (I buy white pepper in large
platic jugs and usually use it when grilling meat on an open fire.)

Re#9: What brand?
re#10:  Do you like boiled peanuts?  Nini makes a killer peanut sauce
that uses as a base ingredient whatever (cheap) peanut butter we have on
hand.  SHe observed once that whats-her-name liked the peanut sauce at a
restaurant and was able to develope a recipe by taste, and improved on
it.

  re #12:   I've never (to my knowledge) tried boiled peanuts but wouldn't
  expect to like the especially -- in general I'm not big on peanuts.  This
  particular sauce is an exception.

RE: #10:  get thyself to the kitchen conference and post the recipe!

I like my hot however I can get it.  With Thai food this is usually
cooked-in and well blended, but I'll add heat if that's the only way
heat is to be had.

I have gone through over half a small bottle of Tabasco in a single meal.

Re #2:  But do you ferment them?

  re #14:  I'll try to remember to do so when I'm not on my way out the door..

Wasabi will clean out your entire nasal cavity.  I love wasabi... maybe it
is time to hit japanese restaurant for lunch tomorrow.

Wasabi is wonderful but not a mustard but rather a 'horseradish'.  I
have at least two tubes of wasabi in the fridge at any given time.
Zaru-soba (cold buckwheat and yam noodles) with wasabi garnish is 
another fave - the Memmen dipping sauce is hard to get - there is
only one market in chicagoland that sells it as far as I have
determined.

yes, i do the wasabi/soy sauce mixture in those cute little lunch packs of
sushi rolls you can get at the deli. good stuff. horseradish i love mixed with
sour cream as a sauce for rosemary potatos or asparagus, or even steamed
string beans. i do wish i could find some high quality horseradish with some
real kick. 

but back to the hot sauces ..  beady, i don't know the name of the korean
chili paste, as the label is entirely in korean. i'm shooting some pool with
my korean friend tonight and i'll ask him .. i'm lucky to have a 'bodega' (its
like a bodega, but with fruits and veggies and some other nice food products)
owned by a korean guy and he's got a ittle shelf with all sorts of koreans
goodies. even have dumplings in the freezer.. ]]]

What sorts of "hot" spices could be reasonably be grown in New England
with traditional agriculture (no greenhouses, etc.), so that they'd have
any chance of being part of "traditional New England cooking"?

  Practically none that are native to the region.  Possibly horseradish.
  Varieties of peppers should be easy enough to grow, though..

Horseradish grows in Massachusetts, anyway.  I don't remember my grandfather
growing peppers, but that may be a failure of my memory or his personal
preferences.

As a genetic present from my mother, I have a tendency towards spice burns
and other inconvenient reactions.  On my own, this is not a problem.
I know to avoid whole classes of 'restaurants' that over-spice.
However, a number of my friends live in Ann Arbor/Ypsi, and thier tastes
run to things that could dissolve concrete.  At some of the more extreme
places, it is literally not safe for me to consume anything other than the
water.  The reason for mentioning this is to remind the hot-spice crowd
that there are people for whom this is an issue, and that when in any
group of non-trivial size, you should ask about spice issues and be ready
to go 'bland' if they exist.  You may be slightly inconvenienced by dull
food, the spice-sensitive may have to risk burns/reactions, skip eating or
just bow out of being with your crowd for the meal or skip the group
altogether.  What is it about thermonuclear foods that makes otherwise
reasonable people go nasty at the suggestion to select less spicy eating
places in social settings?

I think it's the fact that, to someone really accustomed to spices, 
eating food that hasn't been spiced is like eating styrofoam.  It's 
similar to people who smoke who are used to salting everything heavily.

resp:7  that's habanero, oval.  Kick-ass, isn't it?

resp:8  mole.. yummm.

resp:12  oh, duh!  Cholula is good.. I found it was really nice for 
omlettes and other egg dishes.

resp:17  wasabi is good stuff.  Thing is, though, I haven't had much 
Japanese food.  It's good on Californian veggie sushi, though.  
Reminds me, too, that I usually get good soy sauce for it, too.  I 
can't stand soy sauce that is made for the mainstream market-- too 
salty.

resp:23 and resp:24  probably.

Speaking of hot mustard, the Joy of Cooking says that Jamaican hot 
mustards exist as well.  Interesting.  Haven't seen it-- most all I 
see is just the jerk sauces.

re#23:  Boy, it must really suck to be you.
re#25:  Yeah, cholula is good on eggs.  Its also good on rice.

What is a 'good' soy sauce?  I know Kikkoman; is there a better choice?

Re #23:  It is NOT over-spiced! ;-)

Seriously, it's been found that curries and other hot spices
reduce symptoms of indigestion (in at least some people).
You can't blame people for liking that kind of thing when it
makes them feel better; it really is their choice of medicine.

I've found that some of the best hot sauces can be found in little ethnic
groceries.  Just yesterday I found a bottle of "Chirag" pepper & garlic sauce
at Jerusalem International Market (in the Courtyard Shoppes by North Campus).
Very tasty!  Similar to the classic Sriracha sauce, but maybe more flavorful
than hot.  The nice thing about getting hot sauces this way is that it's
cheap, like $2 a bottle as opposed to the $5-6 a bottle the more boutique
sauces you find at Tios or wherever.

On the "hottest sauce" front I'd have to go with Dave's Insanity Sauce.  Not
much flavor, all HOT!  Apply with the tip of a toothpick.  Actually quite nice
in tiny doses on crackers, taken every 15-20 minutes to stave off a sinus
headache (the extreme pain releases endorphins; helps me sometimes).

I got some Dave's Insanity...but found I had to dilute it with regular
hot salsa to use it. 

habanero -- ahh thanks .. very very tasty .. chop with rubber gloves!

i found out about that korean chili paste. no brand name neccessary, they call
it 'go-choo-jang'. apparently it's like how different brands of butter don't
matter - its all butter. same with this stuff. tasty tasty.

Last i knew, Dave's Insanity Sauce came in regular, "extra", and "total"
varieties.  Which are you (#29 & #30) using?  I gave up on the stuff after
a while - it was nice & hot, but what little flavor it had seemed rather
unfavorable to me.

(For the unfamiliar, Dave's is one of the many "fortified" hot sauces.
They add a bunch of the chemical that makes it hot during manufacture...
somewhat like distilled spirits being able to hit much higher percentages
of alcohol than naturally fermented stuff (beer, wine, etc.).)

For that matter, I think it's possible to get pure capsaicin (did I spell that
right?  It's the 'active ingredient' in hot peppers), and I've heard of people
putting that on their food.  Not sure why anyone would want to, but I guess
it's an option.  

Picked up a bottle of Cholula at Krogers this afternoon.  Looking forward to
trying it.

re#27:  Kikkoman soyu seems to be the best.  It is also a 'product of
the USA' so be american and buy american...( like beer, its brewed in
wisconsin).

ahhh yeah, but even Kikkoman soyu is still pretty salty.

resp:29 and resp:30  Dave's Insanity Sauce is habanero based.  Haven't 
tried it yet-- I'll have to compare its ingredients to other habanero 
sauces and try to extrapolate what ingredients make for the extra 
kick, if it does exist.  Capsacin?

Re way back there... serranos aren't red, they're green, usually a dark green.
Could be they come in both colors.

Lately, I've been getting Kikkoman's low-sodium version.  Don't know that it
is any less salty-tasting, though.

they could be using potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride.

- Backtalk version 1.3.30 - Copyright 1996-2006, Jan Wolter and Steve Weiss