New problem with car.

I went to a local Amoco station today, One I have used off and on for many
years.  Bought a couple of bottles of cheap oil.  I usually by the least
expensive oil in whatever station I use, I am not an oil snob.  Oil is oil.

Or at least i used to think so.

Opened the bottle of 10W30 and began to pour it into the engine and yanked
it back so quick it spaltted on my shirt. Now this oil was clear.  Nearly
clear as water.  Just a tinge of of yellow.

I then looked at the back.  The oil in the bottle did NOT meet the minimal
standards for new cars.  Took it back in and got in a fight while trying to
inform the manager that the oil wass substandard.  All he did was point at
the bottle where it said  "Engine OIL" and say they were not responsible for
what was in the bottle as it had been cleared by the government standards.

Now, I had noticed that the price of gas at the station was a little higher
than other stations in the area where they never used to be.  1.49 a gal where
others are offering it at 1.23 a gal.

Also, where the brand name oils was usuall around 2.29 a quart, it was now
2.89 a quart.  The cheaper no name brand I had bought was only 1.89 a quart.
The oil U\I bought at a brand name station brand name oil was only 1.89 gal.

Also, I noticed that the usual staff were not in attendance, but rather had
been replaced by a staff of (I know this sounds racist) mideaastern
extraction.

The manager argued with me, finally gave me my money back, but refused to give
me the name of the owner.

I tried to call BP as soon as I got home (BP owns Amoco) but their customer
relations line was down, so I will call them in the morning, find out who the
owner of the station is, and urge them to make a tour of the station and
explain while non-acceptable oil is being sold in their station.

I guess what I am telling you all is to be aware if you buy inexpensive oil,
that it is not necessarily rated for your engine and could void your warranty.
I didn't even realize that this stuff could be sold as engine oil.

25 responses total.

The owner of the gas station may have been tampering with the oil. His refusal
to tell you who owned the place reinforces my suspicion.

When I lived in Farmington Hills, it was pretty well known that you shouldn't
buy gas at the Speedway station on 8 Mile, because the owner was constantly
getting in trouble for diluting his gasoline with water, very cheap alcohol
derivatives, or other liquid substances that didn't belong in gasoline. 

It was a rather vicious circle, because he'd get fined every time he was
caught, which would make him more inclined to tamper with the gas, so he could
make enough money to offset the fines. 

Without getting all "conspiracy theory" here, think about how most people use
oil when they buy it from a gas station. They usually pour it in to their car
before they drive away, and toss the empty container in to the trash. Does
it seem very unreasonable for an owner to fish the containers out of the trash
bag en route to the dumpster, fill the "expensive" containers with "cheap"
oil that probably costs him $0.65/qt. so he can sell it for $2.89 instead of
$1.89? And now since he's left with a bunch of empty "cheap" containers, he
could fill them with water, vegetable oil, etc. and sell them for $1.89. 

Seriously...consider it. You and I know "oil is oil", but not everyone else
does. Naturally, nobody would complain about the expensive oil, because they
wouldn't notice a difference. If anyone bought the cheap oil and complained,
how hard would it be for him to blame it on the fact that it's "cheap" oil,
and inherently inferior?

I'd swear oil containers have a foil seal on the top, or one of those caps
where you have to break the ring free of the cap, or something like that. 
Or am I confused?

A sealed orifice has been my experience also.  There is nothing unusual,
improper or deceptive about selling engine oil that is below the standard set
by the car manufacturer.  The owners' manual always says what SAE
specifications you must have beyond the weight grade and it is the customer's
duty to read the oil label as one would check the ingredients on packaged
food.

You could have used the oil around the house.  Maybe in your lawn mower or
to top off your James Bond road oiler.

re: 2 -- Not all oil has a foil seal. At least, it didn't used to. And the
breakoff ring is fairly simple to keep in tact.

Ok, I used to live over by bru and if he is talking about the Amoco 
station that is over by US-23, I have to mention that that particular 
gas station has always been more expensive than any of the other nearby 
stations. I always figured it was because it was the only gas station 
at the Plymouth/Green road intersection and also because it is so close 
to the freeway. 

I have to wonder why Bruce feels it is necessarity to mention the 
ethnicity of the staff working at the gas station as if that has 
anything to do with the oil they were selling. 

re: 5 

He made it pretty clear, IMHO. The "regular" staff (of whatever ethnic
background) apparently was no longer running things.

I think if I frequented a black-owned gas station in Detroit, I'd notice if
Asian people started working there.

No, it's the one on Main and William. It's right up from my office, so it's
handy when he needs gas after picking me up. 

Interestingly, the Amoco people had one person listed as the owner in their
files and the manager (owner?) who answered the phone was the same person
Bruce talked to at the station last night and he said that "X sold it."Click.

I'm confused... what was it on the bottle that clued you in that this oil
wasn't up to what your car needed?

It said it did not meet he minimum standards for engines and using it could
void the warranty on your car, or some such thing.

basically, It sounds like the owner has recently sold it, but even amoco isn't
aware of that fact in their computers as of yet.  Heck, it might not even be
an amoco anymore and the new owner just hasn't had the chance to get a new
sign as yet.

Either way, teh attitude of the "manager" really pissed me off.  He refused
to take responsibility for selling sub standard oil.  All he could say is "it
say engine oil, we sell as engine oil."

It's not necessarily true that oil has to have a "yellow" color - some
of the expensive synthetics are also close to clear.  However, "not
rated for engine use" is certainly not a good sign.  I suspect there's
more to what was on the label than what bru said - I've seen similar
stuff at Meijers.  The stuff at Meijers, at least, isn't so much "not
rated" as it's rated to a much older standard (SF instead of SJ or some
such), which is (I think) a 1960's motor oil standard.  It would not be
a good standard to use for modern engine oil.  Generally motor oils are
a superset of previous standards, so SJ motor oil is generally
preferable to SF motor oil, even for an engine originally designed with
SF oil in mind.  There are exceptions; many modern motorcycles, for
instance, have wet plate clutches where the clutch actually sits in the
motor oil.  The anti-friction oils have a bad effect on such clutches.
Unfortunately, the service grade isn't a good enough indication of
whether a given variety of oil has the bad anti-friction compounds.

The best thing to do when you're buying oil is to check your manual.  It will
tell you exactly what you need to use.

Caveat emptor.  When you buy the cheapest thing on the market, you're an 
idiot if you don't inspect it/read the label/etcetera before purchase to 
insure that it meets your minimum requirements.  Everything you need to 
know about that oil is printed on the outside of the jug.  I've seen the 
stuff in the Amoco on State by I-94.

Thanks for the tip, Bruce.  I don't think you were an idiot, I think you
did the best thing possible, by entering this item.

re: 12
I don't know about your luxury Fiat, but most American cars have the oil
requirements on the oil cap now.

I didn't know that.  My wife's M3 doesn't, so it must be an American thing.
They probably assume most Ford buyers don't know how to read a manual or
something.  ;-)

Half the people I know lose the manual to anything they buy in the 1st 6
months.  Half of those that remain lose it when they sell it.  The
chances that a used car will have the original owner's manual are
actually pretty dim.  If the car is not too exotic, it should be
possible to order a replacement manual.

With many cars, the recommended oil is often a function of the expected
ambient temperature - heavier weight oils in summer, lighter weight oils
in winter.  I would not count on being able to read the resulting fine
print on any "recommended oil" sticker in the engine compartment after a
few years of road grime.  You are more likely to find a useful
recommendation for the automatic transmission, power steering, or
radiator fluid reservoirs, because those vary less.

Most modern engines take some form of multi-viscosity oil (such as
"10W-40"), rather than a straight viscosity oil ("30 weight").  This is
oil that is mixed so that it does not thin out as quickly at high
temperatures.  There may be several such oils that match your expected
operating temperature range.  Generally, all things being equal, an oil
with the smallest range (such as "20W-40") will be cheaper and last
longer than an oil with a wider range (as "10W-50").  Quick oil change
places don't always steer you towards such a choice - they tend to like
"one size fits all" solutions, such as the ever popular 10W-40, over
some more speciality oil such as 10W-30.  The owner's manual generally
doesn't contain such guidance.

My newer car takes about 5.5 quarts with a filter change.  I put Mobil
1 in it, which is not supplied by the oil-change houses I typically go
to; accordingly, I buy a 6-pack of oil.  This leaves me with a choice
of having a half-quart of oil left over, or keeping a full quart and
letting the car start a half-quart low.  Either way I have some extra
oil in the car, and by the time it has used that and gotten to the
"LOW" line on the dipstick it's usually time to change the oil again
(7500 miles with synthetic).  A quart every 3000 to 5000 miles isn't
bad for an engine pushing 150,000 miles.

The older car usually needs an oil change before it needs more oil.
Unfortunately, it is rather hard on oil; running 30-weight at highway
speeds thins it out so much that it complains of low oil pressure after
20 miles or so.  20W-50 avoids this but I worry about flow at low
temperatures.  I'm considering changing to 15W-50 synthetic because of
the superior pour point and lubricity, but I worry about effects on
seals on a car that old so I probably won't.

I use 10W-30 because, well, it's a V-6.  That's what's recommended.

I was told 20W-50 is more of a racing lube, but yeah, it's been 
recommended to me when I had an aging car that has since given up 
(differental bearings wore out, and my mechanic friend didn't want to 
do it; not engine death)

Re #19:  20W-50 may be a racing lube, but it's also the recommended
hot-weather oil for the car (small I-4s work hard on the freeway).
I don't think 15W-50 synthetic existed when the car was built.

Re #18: 20W-50 should be okay for summer use; I think the pumping point for
20W is about 15 degrees F.  (Below that it may be too thick to circulate
properly.) I used to run 20W-50 in my VW in the summer, and 10W-40
in the winter.  You'll notice an immediate improvement in oil pressure with
the thicker oil.  The problem is probably that the crankshaft bearings in
your car's engine are worn, and the increased clearances mean that the
thinner oil flows out of the bearings and into the oil pan faster than the
pump can pump more in.

If you decide to run 20W-50, keep in mind it's a bit hard to find sometimes. 
Most oil change places won't stock it, and not all stores will.  I usually
bought Castrol 20W-50 a few quarts at a time and carried it with me, but
then I was using a quart every 1000 miles, too.

If the car has any oil leaks at all, even a slow drip, don't even think
about putting synthetic in it.  It'll leak like a seive, and that stuff is
expensive.

Car makers have been steadily switching to lighter and lighter oils because
it helps them meet CAFE standards.  New Hondas now recommend 5W-20!

Re #21:  I think the problem might have been that the cheap oil used
by the quick-oil-change places doesn't have a lot in the way of
viscosity-index improvers, and loses them very quickly under stress.
I've never had difficulty finding 20W-50 at Meijer.  I'd have used
10W-40, but it doesn't seem to be made any more (I seem to recall
that the range was a bit too much and the oil tended to fail).

I run 5W-30 in my newer car, under all conditions.  Seems to work
just fine (but I've been running synthetic in it for the last 126,000
miles, and the last shop to look inside the engine said it was clean
as a whistle - I say that's an endorsement for Mobil-1, my results
with two very different cars have been nothing short of stellar).

Re #22: I've heard that about 10W-40, too, but I'm not convinced.  It may
have been true at one time, though.  Isn't 20W-50 the same spread as 10W-40? 
I can't remember if the scales are linear or not.

What really scares me is that 0W-30 synthetic Mobil sells.  That stuff is
really thin, like water. ;)

Wow, I consider myself to be doing well if I remember to check my oil 
once a year.    How would I know if my oil was delivering stellar 
performance?

I use Mobil1 5W-30 per mfgr reccomendations, and when I go the Victory Lane
they pour it from sealed quart bottles so I'm pretty darn sure I'm getting
what I ordered.

RE#24: Mileage and engine life are two indications. ;-)

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