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Grex Agora41 Item 172:
Entered by bdh3 on Sun May 12 08:13:44 UTC 2002:

n the maelstrom
           European anti-Semitism reawakens

           By Frida Ghitis
           Frida Ghitis is a journalist
           and author
           Published April 7, 2002

           The Israeli occupation of
           Palestinian territories and
           the country's strong-arm
           response to the recent wave
           of terrorist attacks are
           profoundly troubling to
           millions of people around
           the world. Concern for the
           well-being of Palestinians,
           however, has provided a
           nurturing environment for
           an ominous new trend
           among many intellectuals,
           particularly in Europe, who
           now find it safe to express
           their once-hidden
           anti-Semitism, couching it
           in humanitarian expressions
           of support for the
           Palestinian cause.

           On the first evening of Passover, when many
           in the Israeli coastal city of Netanya had
           gathered to celebrate the holiday, one of the
           many difficult subjects discussed around
           Israel, and perhaps at the religious services at
           the Park Hotel in the center of Netanya, was
           the piercingly painful remarks from
           Portuguese Nobel laureate Jose Saramago on
           a visit to the West Bank town of Ramallah.

           All conversation at that Passover table came
           to a shattered end when a bomber entered the
           hotel and blew himself up. At least 26 Israelis
           were killed and scores more were wounded.

           Only a couple of days before, Saramago, a
           leftist intellectual, had compared Israel to the
           Third Reich, and Ramallah to Auschwitz.
           The Jews, one could deduce from his
           statement, had become today's Nazis.

           Racist remarks from right-wing extremists
           are nothing new. Among the left, however,
           the racism and anti-Semitism that
           characterized the first half of the 20th Century
           had either faded away or been successfully
           concealed. Now reaction to events in Israel
           has brought about an explosion of
           anti-Semitism from all sectors of European
           society and among some of their U.S.
           counterparts.

           In London, the French ambassador caused a
           minor uproar when he was overheard at a
           party lamenting: "Why should we be in
           danger of World War III because of these
           people?" Then he made, and repeated, a
           pejorative reference to Israel.

           In Italy, on the anniversary of the day the
           Allies entered the real Auschwitz--the
           infamous factory of death--a local newspaper
           released a poll showing 1 in 3 consider their
           country's Jews "not real Italians."

           The number was a sharp increase from the
           previous year's poll, in line with other sharp
           rises in anti-Semitism around Europe, like the
           enormous jump in attacks against Jewish
           institutions in France, which doesn't seem to
           give the government much cause for alarm.

           Much of the increase can be traced to a
           poisoned environment brought on by people
           like Saramago, whose inflammatory remarks
           make other anti-Semites feel safe to express
           their opinions. After all, isn't Israel
           mistreating Palestinians?

           There is no question that Israel's actions in
           the West Bank and Gaza Strip are humiliating
           and cruel to Palestinians. Beyond the
           enormous death toll in recent months,
           Palestinians' lives have become ever more
           unbearable as the violence spirals into greater
           and greater horror.

           But even the most ardent supporter of the
           Palestinian cause must see, if looking at the
           situation honestly, that the matter is
           extremely complicated for Israel, whose
           people know terror will strike at any time, in
           any place, and who believe--with good
           reason--that what is at stake in the conflict is
           the survival of their country.

           (In a recent article Henry Kissinger argued
           that the divisions between the Palestinians
           are not between those who want peace and
           those who don't, but between those who want
           to destroy Israel now and those who want to
           make peace to make it easier to destroy
           Israel.)

           The reality is that the Palestinians are living
           miserable lives under an untenable Israeli
           occupation, while Israelis are desperately
           afraid their country will ultimately be
           destroyed.

           Still, many look at Israel's actions in a
           vacuum, dismissing the complexity of the
           situation in favor of a simplistic David versus
           Goliath caricature. The Israelis are the
           mighty, evil ones, while the downtrodden
           Palestinians represent the forces of good.

           Given Palestinian supporters' deep concern, it
           is puzzling to hear such a deafening silence
           from them when it comes to the travails of
           Palestinian refugees living in Arab countries.

           Palestinians living in Lebanon are not allowed
           to work, have no access to social services and
           are not permitted to attend Lebanese schools.
           The writer Fareed Zakaria has noted that,
           while Israel treats the Palestinians like
           second-class citizens, it gives them more
           rights than most Arab nations give their own
           people.

           And yet all the rage is focused on Israel.

           To a large degree, that is understandable.
           Israel is an occupying power. But the total
           focus on Israel's actions betrays a troubling
           trend. Half a century after "civilized" Europe
           gave the world a new meaning for the word
           Holocaust, the pangs of guilt have abated.

           The very real troubles of the Palestinians
           have awakened the dormant, even
           unconscious, anti-Semitism of many.

           Memo: The conflict in the Middle East fuels
           fears stretching beyond the battle zone. On
           the European left, anti-Semitism is revived,
           sometimes wearing the mask of sympathy for
           Palestinians. In Israel, suicide bombings
           pound home the message that Jews are
           surrounded by enemies. It's no surprise that
           Isreal's response has been so determined. 

           Copyright © 2002, Chicago Tribune 

42 responses total.



#1 of 42 by aruba on Sun May 12 16:04:52 2002:

I'm always troubled when somebody seems to be saying that anyone who
criticizes Israel is an anti-semite.


#2 of 42 by other on Sun May 12 20:22:48 2002:

This response has been erased.



#3 of 42 by other on Sun May 12 20:26:38 2002:

I don't see that in this article.  I see the statement that Israel is 
providing opportunities for its own actions to be criticized, and that 
that criticism is being accompanied by expressions of anti-semitic ideas.

Saramago's comparison of Israel to the Third Reich, and Ramallah to 
Auschwitz is not an anti-Israeli remark.  It isn't a political remark.  
It is patently anti-semitic.  It both undermines the horror of the 
holocaust's extremes and dramatically exaggerates the actions of the IDF 
(extreme though they may be, but then they don't have many options and 
none of them are attractive) in the West Bank and Gaza.

And just to make it clear, I'm not siding with lk in this discussion, 
because nobody in their right mind who wanted to convince people that 
they were saying something worth hearing would argue the way he does.
 


#4 of 42 by aruba on Sun May 12 23:38:46 2002:

See, I don't get that at all.  Would it be anti-black people to say that
Idi Amin's actions were reminiscent of the Third Reich?  It feels to me
like Israel's actions should stand on their own merit or failings, and
that criticism of them need not imply hatred of all Jews (which is what
anti-semitism is, unless I'm mistaken). 

Note I haven't read Mr. Saramago's original remark; I only know what I
read in #0 and #3.  If you've read it, Eric, and there is more to it than
what has been presented, please paste it into the item.



#5 of 42 by aruba on Tue May 14 20:18:09 2002:

Eric?


#6 of 42 by other on Wed May 15 00:25:27 2002:

To suggest that the people of Israel, the people Hitler targeted for 
genocide, are doing anything remotely like what Hitler did is pure 
historical revisionism of the sort that can only be motivated by the 
desire to denigrate the Israeli people. 

I am in no way saying that to criticize Israel is anti-semitic.  I am 
saying that to twist the truth of the actions of the Israeli government 
and people so far beyond recognition as to suggest any comparison to the 
Third Reich simply cannot be a legitimate criticism of Israel but can 
only be an expression of anti-semitism.

You said: "I'm always troubled when somebody seems to be saying that 
anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-semite."  And I am saying that 
Saramago's comment is NOT criticism of Israel, it is either an expression 
of anti-semitism or a deranged remark by someone completely out of touch 
with reality, or both.  It is not a difference of degree, it is a 
difference of kind.  Can you not see that?


#7 of 42 by jmsaul on Wed May 15 14:05:08 2002:

(I can.  I'm more inclined to compare Israel to South Africa during the era
 of Apartheid.  Including, for the sake of fairness, the point that the
 Blacks in South Africa weren't much more native there than the whites were.)


#8 of 42 by aruba on Wed May 15 16:00:54 2002:

I did some web searching to try to find the original quote from Saramago. 
Unfortunately I couldn't find it in English, and I don't read Portuguese or
Spanish.  The Washington Post, The NY Times, and CNN all had nothing on the
story.

Eric, you say that Saramago "can only be motivated by the desire to
denigrate the Israeli people".  I don't know for sure, but my impression
is that he is motivated by a desire to publicize the plight of the
Palestinians, which in turn is motivated by a deire to improve their human
rights. 

You say that any comparison of Israel's actions to those of the Nazis
"simply cannot be legitimate" and "can only be an expression of
anti-Semitism".  Well, no, I don't buy it.  That sounds to me like saying
"What you're saying is so outrageous and ridiculous that it can't possibly
be true", without saying *why* you think it's outrageous.  In other words,
it's an emotional appeal which is sometimes used to avoid addressing actual
facts.  It's also a good way to cover The Big Lie, hich was used by, well,
you know.

Now I really don't want to get bogged down in the specifics of who did
what to whom - I really have no stomach for fighting about this (I forget
Leeron's items as soon as they appear).  But to me, as an observer without
a vested interest on either side (though I do have a lot of Jewish
friends, and I have some sense of the connection American Jews feel to
Israel), it does look like the nation of Israel is doing some pretty nasty
and repressive things to the Palestinians.  Not without provocation, and
not with abandon, but horrifying nonetheless. 

Hitler didn't start out by putting people in ovens.  He started on a more
modest program of hate, and he mixed a lot of other things in with it.
It would have been much better if people had seen where this would lead
before they got there.  If we wait until a country has committed genocide
before we allow them to be compared with the Nazis, haven't we waited too
long?


#9 of 42 by aruba on Wed May 15 16:30:36 2002:

Note that I'm not saying Israel deserves to be compared to Nazi Germany, nor
that it doesn't.  I'm saying that as an uncommitted observer, I read
something like what Saramago said and say, "Well, maybe he's right."  Then
I read what Eric wrote, and I think "He's avoiding the question."  So if you
think Saramago is off-base, and you care what uncommitted people like me
think, this is your opportunity to convince us.  But blowing off the
question doesn't do it.


#10 of 42 by other on Wed May 15 17:29:12 2002:

I've read enough acounts of events (not provided by lk or aaron) and 
heard enough relevant history throughout my life to believe that although 
Israel is far from blameless for the continuing state of affairs, its  
actions in recent events have been targeted at eliminating the threat of 
violent attacks on its civilian citizens and have been undertaken with 
caution to minimize unnecessary civilian casualties.

The only group perpetuating hatred as a tool of social change here is the 
Palestinians.  They are in desperate circumstances, and have adopted 
desperate measures.  Contrast that with the Israeli situation, which is 
that throughout its history there have been massed forces on its borders 
with the sole intent of completely obliterating it, and only the military 
support of the United States has allowed it to develop adequate defense 
against that eventuality.  

Each group is bent on survival, but Israel is not the one determined to 
destroy the other in order to insure its own place.  So what question am 
I avoiding?  The reason *why* I think Saramago's statements are 
outrageous is that the whole philosophical spectrum exists between the 
position of the Third Reich and that of Israel.  And no amount of pro-
Palestinian sophistry can change that.


#11 of 42 by scott on Wed May 15 18:24:33 2002:

There's a presumption that, having lived through Holocaust, the Israelis
couldn't possibly do anything like what the Nazis did.  However, those
Israelis are now mostly dead or in nursing homes, and it's a generation or
two later.  I hope the presumption is still true about Leeron's generation,
and that he's a lone crank.


#12 of 42 by slynne on Wed May 15 19:18:33 2002:

Come on, I dont think Leeron would advocate genocide. 


#13 of 42 by scott on Wed May 15 20:09:55 2002:

Dunno.  I don't know Leeron beyond what he posts here on Grex.  

In the 1930s and into WWII plenty of otherwise nice people were happy enough
to blame the Jews for their economic woes and to be happy when the government
removed the Jews from their cities.  Probably a great many of these Germans
were shocked when they eventually learned that the Jews were being killed
instead of just moved elsewhere.  I doubt that a majority actually believed
all that goofy Ayran theology, even in those days when eugenics was popular.
That's why the Nazi propaganda also accused the Jews of plenty of social evils
as well as being "racially impure".  Basically the Jews were accused of all
sorts of things, so that different people with different beliefs would each
be able to find something they hated about the Jews.  

I haven't seen Leeron advocate genocide.  Probably he wouldn't want it to
happen, given the choice.  However, he's happy to tell us all about
Palestinian violence, Palestinian corruption, Palestinian lies, and how the
Palestinians are a threat to Israel's very existence. 

Sound familiar?  Again, I really hope this is just a possibility, and that
there's nobody quietly working behind the scenes for a "final solution" for
the Palestinians.  Probably I'm being paranoid, but that doesn't excuse me 
from the duty of making sure.


#14 of 42 by jmsaul on Wed May 15 21:52:42 2002:

Re #11:  That presumption, even when that generation was running the country,
         was made by people who don't understand the effects of stress on
         the human psyche.  Some Holocaust survivors became people of peace,
         and many just got on with their lives.  But others showed all the
         symptoms of various stress disorders (like PTSD), and weren't
         necessarily nice or safe people to be around -- and people like that
         will do *anything* to protect the people they care about.  I think
         Holocaust survivors have had both a positive and negative effect
         on Israel's culture.


#15 of 42 by senna on Wed May 15 22:44:21 2002:

I don't buy the "comparing Israel to Nazi Germany cannot be anything BUT
anti-semitism" argument at all.  I'm sure there can be some anti-semitism with
some of the people making the argument, but I'm much more inclined to think
that people forwarding that argument simply have a different (in my opinion,
an innaccurate) view of the facts.  Calling it "automatic anti-semitism" is
just an excuse that allows one to overlook the real cause for such views, be
it a reflection on Israel or a reflection on the commentator.  Do I think
Israel is a second incarnation of Nazi Germany?  No.  I don't think they're
capable of the same sort of genocide, if for no other reason that if they
started down that path, sooner or later a lot of it would start to look
hauntingly familiar and they'd realize what it was before it was too late.
Besides, there wasn't a real terrorism problem with Jews in Germany-there *is*
a problem in Israel.  

But dismissing the argument as automatically racist is wrong and shortsighted,
in my opinion.  


#16 of 42 by aruba on Wed May 15 23:24:08 2002:

There *was* a problem with terrorism in Germany in the 20s and 30s - the
Nazis generally blamed it on the communists, and people began to believe
that they needed the Nazis to protect them from the communists. 

The question, Eric, is "What separates what Israel is doing from what the
Nazis did?"  Which is another way of saying, "How do we know they aren't
headed down the same path?"

Again, I'm not saying I know the answer.  But it's a legitimate question,
and it should be asked.  In fact, it should be asked about a lot of
things, if we want to make sure we never see a repetition of the
holocaust.


#17 of 42 by other on Thu May 16 00:02:15 2002:

1) The German fight against communism was a political fight for the 
predominance of one type of government (and perhaps one way of life) 
against another, not a fight against those who would destroy the German 
people and nation altogether.

2) Israel does not now and never will seek the absolute annhilation of 
another people from the face of the Earth.  Its sole goal has always been 
to simply be allowed to live in peace with its neighbors.  

3) The Palestinian people have historically been the hated outcasts of 
the Arab nations of the Middle East, as were the Jews in Europe.  The 
difference is that the plight of the Palestinians was imposed on them by 
the Arab nations, and subsequently, by themselves.  Israel has ONLY 
contributed to that reality by its unwillingness to accept or blindly 
open itself to violent attacks against its people.

If ANYONE seriously thinks there are realistic parallels (as opposed to 
surface similarities -- and if I have to explain the difference then my 
efforts are wasted anyway) between what is going on in Israel and what 
went on in the Germany of the 1920's and 1930's, then the only 
explanation I can offer is ignorance of history and/or present events, or 
the desire to see Israel fall.  And there is little doubt that the desire 
to see Israel fall is born out of anti-semitism, because Israel is a 
Jewish nation.  That is its defining characteristic and its sole raison 
d'etre.

So yes, Mark, it is a legitimate question to ask, but the answer is 
pretty plain to anyone who does a little looking at anything beyond the 
headlines of the last few months.  Frankly, I think we are all falling 
victim to the notion that if something is oft enough repeated, it becomes 
accepted as truth.  And frankly, I believe that is the desperate strategy 
upon which Palestinian hopes are being pinned.


#18 of 42 by scott on Thu May 16 01:29:38 2002:

Re 17:
" Israel does not now and never will seek the absolute annhilation of
 another people from the face of the Earth."

No, I don't buy that.  I don't doubt it's your genuine sentiment, Eric, but
you're making a very serious promise for a goverment in another country.  The
history I've learned as result of curiosity about this situation is that
things are not as cut-and-dried as you claim.  Israel *has* taken land from
the Palestinians, and the only argument in favor seems to be that the
Palestinians are nasty people and therefore *deserve* to lose it.

I don't "the desire to see Israel fall", I sincerely hope they continue to
exist and protect a Jewish legacy.  Rather, I'm upset that a country with such
noble aims can behave the way they appear to be behaving.


#19 of 42 by senna on Thu May 16 06:46:54 2002:

The "never will seek" claim is only as valid as the same claim made for the
governments of Canada, the United States, Great Britain, France, *germany*,
etc.  Right now neither Israel nor any of these other states has any intention
of committing genocide, either in their government or in their populace, but
we've clearly seen that things change and that humanity is capable of
unthinkable brutality.  Heck, most Russians under the Communist government
were probably against all forms of Genocide, but that didn't stop it from
happening under Stalin.  

I don't think there's anything particularly better or worse about Israel than
about any other country, but their situation is a lot more tense and people
react in interesting ways to such pressure.  Is anyone prepared to say that
the United States, under difficult circumstances, is completely incapable of
such injustice?  What if they only enslaved a population, would the United
States ever promote SLAVERY?

Nah, could never happen, our founding fathers would never allow it.


#20 of 42 by mdw on Thu May 16 06:49:23 2002:

The USA had a bounty on Indians not much over a century ago.


#21 of 42 by slynne on Thu May 16 13:51:16 2002:

Re#17 (#2) If Israel's goal is to simply live in peace with its 
neighbors, why did they build all those settlements in Gaza and the 
West Bank when it is pretty obvious that those settlements are one of 
the biggest things preventing peace. I agree that there is no evidence 
that Israel has a desire to annhilate the Palestinian people but they 
dont exactly seem to want them to live in any way but under Israeli 
control. 

Anyhow, I think some comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany is fair but 
ineffective. It kind of reminds me of when my sister and I fight and 
one of us says "youre just like mom" We dont say it because it is true 
(although we both are much more like our mother than Israel is like 
Nazi Germany), we say it to be hurtful. I think a lot of time people do 
compare Israel to the Nazis just to be hurtful and there is some anti-
semitism in that even if there is *some* truth to what they are saying. 
Perhaps it is better to compare Israel to other regimes. e.g. Israel is 
like Russia in the Russia/Chechnya conflict. Israel is like white South 
Africa during apartheid. Or maybe we can avoid the comparisons 
altogether since none are perfect and just focus on any human rights 
violations there might be using some neutral guildline (maybe the one 
in the ICC treaty?)



#22 of 42 by other on Thu May 16 15:05:09 2002:

One of the greatest faults in the approach Israel takes (as far as I'm 
concerned) is indeed the policy on settlements.  I'm not sufficiently 
knowledgeable on the subject to say what the exactly right policy should 
be, but I'm certain that whatever it is, it is more limiting than the 
current one.

I find legitimate arguments on both sides of the settlement question.  It 
is a very grey area.


#23 of 42 by klg on Sat May 18 03:22:54 2002:

Perhaps slynne could explain for us how the settlements are
preventing peace in Gaza and Samaria/Judea, but did not prevent
the signing of a peace treaty with Egypt??


#24 of 42 by bdh3 on Sat May 18 07:59:31 2002:

Perhaps slynne cannot, or I got there first, doesn't matter.
The 'disputed land' between Egypt and Israel was a completely
different matter and doesn't matter no how with regard to 
the current problem.  (Not to mention that only a fool would
choose to live there.)  The situation with regard to the nascient
'Palastinian State' is simply that you cannot be a sovereign
nation if you have 'enclaves' of foreign nation's citizens
strategically placed with fine regard to military theory
protected by such nation's military inside your own borders.
No matter how friendly (and the PLO and the IDF ain't exactly
best buds right about now) it just isn't how such things work.
New Mexico ain't part of the Republic of Mexico no matter how
much they have in common nor should the state of 'palestine'
or whatever it eventually calls itself (what a stupid name)
be forced to tolerate such any differently.  Either you are an
'occupied territory' or you are a sovereign nation.  Fish or
Fowl, Pregnant or not.


#25 of 42 by klg on Sat May 18 22:28:25 2002:

re:  "you cannot be a sovereign
 nation if you have 'enclaves' of foreign nation's citizens
 strategically placed with fine regard to military theory"  So 
that explains why the presence of W. Berlin kept E. Germany
from being a "sovereign nation," I guess.  That must be news
to them.


#26 of 42 by slynne on Sun May 19 17:39:50 2002:

re#23 There are Israeli settlements within Egypt's borders?


#27 of 42 by klg on Mon May 20 00:51:40 2002:

After the '67 war, Israel established settlements in land taken from
Egypt (the Sinai).  As has been mentioned here numerous times, 
those settlements were dismantled under the orders of none other than 
Ariel Sharon (despite strenuous protests) as a result of the 
peace negotiations that returned the Sinai to Egypt.


#28 of 42 by slynne on Mon May 20 16:25:42 2002:

Right, and the settlers were compensated (mostly by the United States 
as I understand it) quite well. So they moved out of the settlements 
and peace was achieved. In other words, there currently are no Isreali 
settlements within Egypt's borders. Something similar will probably be 
necessary with the West Bank and Gaza. 



#29 of 42 by klg on Tue May 21 00:02:46 2002:

Are the Arab villages in Israel an obstacle to peace, too?  Or just
the Jewish villages in Judea/Samaria?  Please try to answer without
invoking a double standard.


#30 of 42 by tsty on Tue May 21 13:34:38 2002:

no, but teh *residents* of those villages sure are! no double
standard.


#31 of 42 by slynne on Tue May 21 16:45:22 2002:

Jewish villages under Israeli control would be the impediment, klg. 
Does Israel control the Arab villages within its borders? ARe the 
citizens of those villages Israeli citizens? Jewish villages in a 
Palestinian state where that state has control of those villages and 
where the occupants of those villages are citizens of the Palestinian 
state would not be an obstacle to peace, imho. 




#32 of 42 by klg on Tue May 21 21:55:03 2002:

tsty is just being stupid, I guess.  But slynne is asking
questions that are subject for negotiation - in which Nobel Peace
Prize laureate Yasser Arafat has so often demonstrated having little, if
no interest.


#33 of 42 by slynne on Wed May 22 16:21:32 2002:

Has the option of leaving the settlements (and any settlers who want to 
stay) under Palestinian control been presented to Arafat? 



#34 of 42 by klg on Thu May 23 01:59:00 2002:

I don't know.  Has he proposed it to the Israelis?


#35 of 42 by slynne on Thu May 23 16:03:11 2002:

Beats me. 


#36 of 42 by klg on Fri May 24 01:34:58 2002:

I'd guess that a Nobel Peace Prize laureate should at least have 
brought it up.


#37 of 42 by russ on Tue May 28 01:40:17 2002:

Re #10:  The desperation of the Palestinians is self-imposed (or by
their leadership, which is the same thing).  They had things much
better before they embarked on the most recent campaign of murder.
The checkpoints would have been forced out of existence by international
pressure if the bombers weren't enough to trump European hypocrisy.

Re #13:  Leeron has also posted how the groups actually doing the
dirty work are very small (like Hamas, at perhaps 1500 members in
the territories).  It's really easy to view the Palestinian regime
as grossly corrupt when their 30,000-strong "police" force doesn't
arrest and detain a corps 1/20 their strength whose very presence
violates the terms of the Oslo agreement under which the PA exists.

If Leeron did start arguing for genocide, there would be no difficulty
at all using his own posted facts and figures to refute him.  For this
reason alone I doubt that he thinks genocide is a solution; he's far
too logical for that.

I'm of the opinion that genocide is unlikely because the USA stands for
restraint.  This is true unless and until there is a general demand for
jihad against the USA, and we have another event like 9/11 (or worse,
such as an NBC attack).  Then all bets are off, and I will vote for the
candidate who promises to do the worst to them that we possibly can.

Such an attack on us frees us to respond in kind.  We have *how* many
shell's worth of VX gas in Indiana?  *How* fast could we whip up tons
of weapons-grade anthrax?  We have *how* many nukes in our inventory?
Let Islam fear to awaken the sleeping giant, because there may not be
an Islamic world left for long if they do.

If Pakistan and India go toe-to-toe with nukes, it'll acquaint the
Muslims with radioactive craters and REAL hell for the first time.
If it happens, let's hope such an event sobers up the theology-drunk
fanaatics enough to make them sane.  I don't know what else will.


#38 of 42 by bdh3 on Tue May 28 07:16:18 2002:

Lets hope India and Pakistan don't as we would likely feel the
effects as well.


#39 of 42 by slynne on Tue May 28 13:23:04 2002:

I wonder what it would take to sober russ up from his MIGHTY USA 
(basking in reflective glory) high and make him sane?




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