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| Author |
Message |
| 23 new of 30 responses total. |
jazz
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response 8 of 30:
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Feb 7 14:40 UTC 2003 |
The kids don't take that any more seriously than they took DARE,
either. I suppose it's something of a mystery to the right as to when
moralizing to children stopped working.
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phenix
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response 9 of 30:
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Feb 7 18:15 UTC 2003 |
basically kids are gonna fuck, at least give em the abilty to survive it
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gizlnort
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response 10 of 30:
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Feb 7 21:41 UTC 2003 |
I could help the right with that question, moralizing to kids stopped working
when you did not have the stick of outcasting members or flogging them for
deviating. (I know crude generalization but there it is.) However what I
am curious about is does the righ extend that lack of knowledge on birth
control to the marraige bed, is it sex for copulation only or once married
are you finally allowed, to the right, sex for pleasure?
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jmsaul
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response 11 of 30:
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Feb 8 05:12 UTC 2003 |
Pull the other one. It didn't work then either.
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jaklumen
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response 12 of 30:
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Feb 9 03:58 UTC 2003 |
resp:9 No. That kind of blanket statement simply is not true.
Not all kids are going to fuck. That kind of assumption says they are
nothing but animals and can't rise above base instinct.
resp:7 It would be nice if there was a happy medium somewhere,
because abstinence is *not* generally talked about in most sex ed
classes today.
It's fine to talk about birth control and STDs.. but is anyone really
telling kids *what* they're getting into when they have sex? The
emotional bonding that occurs? All the other unpleasant bodily
functions that can happen during sex-- farting, seminal fluid sliding
down your leg, etc., etc.? Is this a decision that can be made
independently of peer pressure?
resp:10 It depends on who you talk to. I think it's probably an
outdated notion. Now.. I do know that some people of conservative
faiths don't believe in birth control, including some of my own.
-but- I'm sure many would agree that sex is for deeping the marriage
bond as well as procreative purposes, and back again.. I mean, for
myself, I love my wife even more after having had a child. Does that
make sense?
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polytarp
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response 13 of 30:
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Feb 9 18:39 UTC 2003 |
Lelande sure was right about you, J. Ack. Lumen.
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jaklumen
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response 14 of 30:
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Feb 10 03:08 UTC 2003 |
No one asked you, Phillie boy.
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michaela
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response 15 of 30:
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Feb 10 03:31 UTC 2003 |
Re #12 - teaching abstinence in a sex ed class is one of those "duh" things.
Every kid knows that they can either have sex or not have sex. Telling them
that they can refuse sex is like telling them they can refuse to eat a certain
food. They're just going to say, "Um, yeah...I KNOW that..."
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cyklone
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response 16 of 30:
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Feb 10 03:35 UTC 2003 |
What kids really need are lessons in how to say no. Just telling them
abstinence works is not enough.
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polytarp
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response 17 of 30:
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Feb 10 21:06 UTC 2003 |
14; and? Did anyone ask you if someone asked me to ask you to say hi, why
are you such a jerk?
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michaela
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response 18 of 30:
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Feb 12 05:06 UTC 2003 |
Re #16 - my parents never taught me that. The schools never taught me that.
I still knew 'how to say no'. I simply said, "Don't push me. I'm not ready
for that." When he laughed and kept touching me, I slapped him hard and
walked home.
I was not a tough person. I was, at that time, a fragile, scared,
old-fashioned, overly-sensitive Catholic girl in the 10th grade. It's not
that they don't know how to say no...they're just scared to say no. Teaching
abstinence will not remove that fear.
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cyklone
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response 19 of 30:
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Feb 12 14:27 UTC 2003 |
Are you just extrapolating from your own experience and generalizing to
the teen population in general? Did you even understand my point? Or are
you agreeing with me when I said "Just telling them abstinence works is
not enough."? My point is that there *are* ways to teach teens to overcome
the fear you mentioned.
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jazz
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response 20 of 30:
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Feb 12 14:29 UTC 2003 |
By the time children reach adolescence, they're quite capable of saying
"no" already. Perhaps not in the face of strong peer pressure, but adults
are no different in that regard. What adolescents would need is reasons,
reasons that make sense in their value systems and world views, to say no,
which are generally lacking.
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phenix
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response 21 of 30:
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Feb 12 16:45 UTC 2003 |
you're going to die from some invisible threat 10 years from now is usually
not enough either.
there need to be alternatives, frank and open discussions of sexuality
and removing the "taboo" nature of the act...nothing screams to teens
"the ore they say no the more you should do it" like arbitrary taboo
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cyklone
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response 22 of 30:
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Feb 12 21:26 UTC 2003 |
I'm still not sure if we're all saying the same thing or not. It seems to me
that everyone agrees teens know how to vocalize the word "no." What we may
not all agree on is why they don't utter the words more often or why they back
down after uttering them.
I'm not sure I agree with #20 if you are saying teens lack sufficient
reasons to say no. Lots of cowards know what they really *want* to do
(and why), even as they do something else. I think it is the same for many
teens.
What I've read and heard from people who do these types of things is that
kids lack the skills to fend off peer pressure. Role-playing seems to be
an effective means for them to actually practice what it is they want to
do and say.
So if most of you are saying teens just need better reasons to say no, I
disagree. I think they deserve more credit than they're being given for
already having developed some clear reasons. I think they just need better
techniques to stand firm.
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i
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response 23 of 30:
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Feb 13 03:14 UTC 2003 |
If the stupid "How to Say No", "How to put a condom on a banana", etc.
lessons are actually important to 1 teen in 25, is it worth wasting the
time of the other 24? Should there be some way to "test out" of a sex-
uality education class?
(How many insecure, immature, under-informed, conformance-happy, think-
they're-immortal teens really benefit from those classes anyway? Does
anyone try to look at the hoped-for benefits?)
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cyklone
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response 24 of 30:
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Feb 13 03:51 UTC 2003 |
Role playing or dramatization are not just simple "How to Say No" lessons.
And apparently, quite a few kids benefit from those methods.
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jazz
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response 25 of 30:
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Feb 13 14:50 UTC 2003 |
Teens lack sufficient reasons, in their own moral context, to say "no".
They're making an intelligent decision, the same as many adults do, in the
face of insufficient evidence. In the light of adult experience and lower
hormones, sometimes these dscisions seem foolish, but only when we forget the
moral context teens make their decisions in.
Adults do risky things all the time. However, either the benefit is
great enough, in their way of thinking, or the risks are low enough.
Convincing an adult to not do something without understanding why they thought
the benefits were great enough or the risks low enough, is an attempt doomed
to failure.
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cyklone
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response 26 of 30:
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Feb 13 21:10 UTC 2003 |
Well, now we're getting somewhere. I think no one could reasonably dispute
that there are at least two categories of teens to be reached: Those that lack
a sufficient grasp of the consequences to make good decisions and those that
grasp the consequences but lack the social and emotional skills to follow
through on the good decisions they can at least make in their heads.
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jazz
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response 27 of 30:
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Feb 14 15:13 UTC 2003 |
I know it's anecdotal, but I don't remember anyone in my teenage years,
and I don't know any teenagers nowadays, who is completely ignorant of the
consequences of sex in terms of pregnancy and STDs, or who really doesn't want
to have sex, but has difficulty expressing it.
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cyklone
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response 28 of 30:
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Feb 14 18:43 UTC 2003 |
I guess my response is anecdotal as well, but I have a friend who received
grant money to do a theatrical presentation (in a rural area with a high
rate of teen pregnancy) on sex-related issues for teens in which the teens
themselves were actors. The teens would act out common scenarios and then
take questions from the audience. They would answer first as their
characters and then as themselves. I don't know if there were any studies
as to the effectiveness of this program, but according to my friend, many
teens were grateful for the program (which suggests to me there is a
problematic part of current day sex ed that has not been identified or
addressed) and that the actors were treated like, in her words, "rock
stars."
As for the effectiveness itself, I noted with interest a recent study of
DARE that found it ineffective except for "Dare Plus" which included a
theatrical component. Finally, I suspect the teens you mention anecdotally
are probably more sophisticated and aware than the rural teens I
mentioned. I also think that "completely ignorant" doesn't really add
anything to this discussion. Even a little ignorance can be dangerous. As
for kids who "really doesn't want to have sex, but has difficulty
expressing it" judging from Dear Abby and a number of other advice columns
I've read, there are quite a few teens that fit that description to a "T".
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jazz
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response 29 of 30:
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Feb 16 15:32 UTC 2003 |
You have a good case, one I didn't think of. I was thinking more in
terms of the suburban educational experience.
I don't think that there's any harm to a dramatization of common sexual
scenarios, and there's certainly a lot of benefit to be had. Our culture has
an odd habit of being open about some aspects of sexuality, and being
completely obteuse about others, and dramatizing the whole process of a
relationship would certainly help people out there to know they're not alone
in what they're going through.
I do still have the feeling that you have to deal with adolescents the
same way you'd deal with adults, if you want to change their behaviour.
Understand where they're coming from, accept their point of view, and lead
them from their point of view to understanding yours. If yours really
includes information they're not privy to, or factors they hadn't considered,
then adopting your position, when it's presented with respect for theirs, is
very reasonable.
That's where most of the plans that I've seen for changing adolescent
behaviour have failed - they *don't* understand the attitudes and opinions
of adolescents, much less respect them, and attempt to scare or coerce
behaviour changes. That's a formula for cognitive dissonance.
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cyklone
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response 30 of 30:
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Feb 16 20:09 UTC 2003 |
I think you've hit the nail on the head. It is difficult to create
programs that both respect and show understanding for teen experience and
understanding while also trying to establish a more adult relationship,
both in terms of our expectations for them and our modeling adult-to-adult
behavior for them. And reverting back to anecdotes, I can totally attest
to the teenage benefit of having other adults treat me as an adult,
especially at a time when many of my primary relationships were so fucked
up.
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