|
|
| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 186 responses total. |
flem
|
|
response 78 of 186:
| 
Dec 1 19:37 UTC 2003 |
Jamie argues that membership in Grex is really a fee for service. I'm
not sure I agree.
As far as I know, all of the services we provide to members are things
that we would cheerfully provide for anyone, except for the fact that
they would cause serious problems. We would let anyone have outgoing
internet access, except that it would swamp grex's resources and make
grex an attractive base of operations for vandals. We would let anyone
vote, except that there would be no way to ensure one vote per physical
person (there are other problems with open voting, too; this one is
arguable). Grex hasn't traditionally provided "perks" to members; we
have just denied access to specific services to anonymous users, for
very good reasons. We have to draw a line somewhere between users that
we trust not to do things to hurt grex and users that we can't trust.
Membership seems to be a good place to draw that line. (At least, it
hasn't really hurt us yet.)
Membership in Grex (or more properly in Cyberspace Communications, I
suppose) resembles a fee-for-service in some ways, but I think it is
well understood by most contributors that what we're doing with our
money isn't buying some services, it's supporting Grex as an
institution. That's why the membership, and in particular the board (at
least during my service there), has tended to oppose making changes to
what services we provide to members. That's also why I think that
adding "perks" to membership won't really attract any new members. (I
suppose I'm willing to be proved wrong: anyone who would become a
member if we added some specific service for members should feel free to
speak up.)
I'm having trouble articulating it, but I think there's something
important in this distinction. Concentrating on nifty new services we
can add to attract new members so that we can make more money so that we
can provide more nifty services is not what Grex is about. In so far as
Grex is about anything, it's about the services that we can provide to
anyone who runs newuser. In my opinion, that's our mission. That's why
I donate money and that's what I strive to facilitate as a board member.
Unfortunately, this item has made it pretty clear that Jamie isn't on
the same page. So, I guess the item has served its purpose after a
fashion.
|
mynxcat
|
|
response 79 of 186:
|
Dec 1 22:55 UTC 2003 |
The fact is that grex needs more members. And if you're not getting it
by appealing to people's sense of charity, you need to get them some
other way. I don't think we're talking about really snazzy perks, but
maybe something really simple that might push the person hedging about
paying for a membership over the edge. Like internet access and telnet
access used to do back in the day. Of course, those don't quite cut it
now.
|
gull
|
|
response 80 of 186:
|
Dec 2 14:55 UTC 2003 |
Tote bags autographed by Jan Wolter! ;>
|
mynxcat
|
|
response 81 of 186:
|
Dec 2 15:49 UTC 2003 |
I want one autographed by remmers.
|
remmers
|
|
response 82 of 186:
|
Dec 2 16:50 UTC 2003 |
Something to keep in mind with respect to any perks is that membership
is only $60 per year. Therefore, a perk had better be pretty cheap for
Grex to supply, or Grex won't realize much income from any extra members
that the perk might garner.
|
jp2
|
|
response 83 of 186:
|
Dec 2 17:02 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
|
flem
|
|
response 84 of 186:
|
Dec 2 17:40 UTC 2003 |
When is the last time Grex has actively appealed to anyone's charity?
The last time I remember was the new computer fundraiser, which well
exceeded its target donations in a very short time period. We've tried
pretty hard to avoid coming out and asking for money directly, because
while we're pretty sure we'd get it, frankly we're not desperate yet.
We don't want to become desperate, so we would like to get more members,
but it's not time to panic yet.
If Jamie really wanted to do something useful to Grex, he should spend
some time talking to regular users who are not members and finding out
why they are not members, and what we could do to entice them to become
members.
|
davel
|
|
response 85 of 186:
|
Dec 2 19:53 UTC 2003 |
Since the standard answer I've seen has been "I don't really think they need
money that badly", I'm not sure what kind of enticement would be appropriate.
I'm with those who want to avoid making membership a payment-for-services-
received arrangement. And at that I'm probably closer than most to needing
something Grex provides. We're financially at a point that we don't have an
ISP, and we actually rely on Grex for web access & email. If I really decide
I can't live without better access, I probably won't continue membership in
Grex - but I was a member before Grex had any network connection, & my reason
for stopping would be pretty purely financial.
|
jp2
|
|
response 86 of 186:
|
Dec 2 21:14 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
|
mynxcat
|
|
response 87 of 186:
|
Dec 2 22:01 UTC 2003 |
I read the MOTD. Now you know one person.
But I think Jamie does have a point. If there are users out there who
don't know that they have an option of becoming a member, then there
is an avenue we need to explore. The web-site does a good enough job
talking about membership. But we need to get the message across to the
users that telnet in directly.
Also, apart from sending messages to users who have survived one
reaping, how about sending a message to every new user that makes an
account giving them an overview of what grex is about (something like
the new message you get when you open a Yahoo email account, but one
that talks more about grex and the community) I think that it would
help in putting the message across that grex is more than just free
email. I'm sure we could find a few people out there interested enough
in becoming members, even if they did come for the free email. (I came
for free email in 1997, I'm still around. There are people who will
convert)
|
willcome
|
|
response 88 of 186:
|
Dec 2 22:02 UTC 2003 |
Stop it.
,.
|
tod
|
|
response 89 of 186:
|
Dec 2 23:04 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
|
jp2
|
|
response 90 of 186:
|
Dec 3 00:02 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
|
mynxcat
|
|
response 91 of 186:
|
Dec 3 03:26 UTC 2003 |
I wasw thinking more like a welcome message, not necessarily asking
them to become members. How many people who actually log in to grex
make full use of the BBS? Of the games? (Ok, that's a joke, though I
do play hangman if I'm really bored.) True, the message about becoming
a member can be delayed. But a welcome message could prompt new users
to explore the other facilities.
|
flem
|
|
response 92 of 186:
|
Dec 3 16:13 UTC 2003 |
>From 84:
>
> If Jamie really wanted to do something useful to Grex, he should spend
> some time talking to regular users who are not members and finding out
> why they are not members, and what we could do to entice them to become
> members.
>
>I've done exactly this. I emailed roughly 900 users
Jamie has already been notified of this, but for the rest of you, please
note, just in case it wasn't obvious, that this is not acceptable use of
grex. Don't do it. Don't claim that I told you to do it. Mass mail is
bad, mm'kay?
|
naftee
|
|
response 93 of 186:
|
Dec 3 16:17 UTC 2003 |
WHAT>! YOU NEVER WARNED JLAMB NOW DID YOU>< DID YOU>
|
mynxcat
|
|
response 94 of 186:
|
Dec 3 18:56 UTC 2003 |
Would a message in a new user's inbox be counted as mass mail?
|
aruba
|
|
response 95 of 186:
|
Dec 3 19:57 UTC 2003 |
Sending mail to users telling them about how Grex is supported, and how
they can become members, has been discussed on and off for a number of
years. A couple of years ago Valerie worked out a way to do it with
minimal impact on the system, and wrote a program. danr wrote the
message. We were all set to start sending the messages, when the quantity
of Spam sent to Grex users suddenly exploded, and valerie and I got cold
feet about the whole project. We realized how much we hated Spam, and
were unsettled at the idea of becoming Spammers ourselves.
I am on the fence about it, but I guess I do think it's a legitimate thing
to do - after all, lots of nonprofits send newsletters and things to remind
people to donate. They even call up on the phone, which is way more
obnoxious than an email.
At least one question needs to be answered before we implement it - what
return address should be on the message, and who should respond to the angry
replies? The answer could be "no one", but that seems like a copout to me
- I think if you send Spam, you should deal with the consequences, or you're
being irresponsible. Valerie did implement an "opt-out" in her program; I'm
not sure how it would work. (I.e., would the user have to go to a web page,
or reply with a keyword in the subject line, or what.) But undoubtedly
there wuld be some angry replies as well.
We're talking about a large volume of email, and we tentatively suggested
sending a message every three months to people who aren't members. I
forget the numbers, but say there are 30,000 users who aren't members;
that's over 300 messages on the average day. No doubt some portion of the
replies will be nasty, and it could become a lot of work to deal with
them. (I don't *know* it'd be a lot of work - we'd have to try it to find
out.)
|
jp2test
|
|
response 96 of 186:
|
Dec 3 20:00 UTC 2003 |
I hate to put it so bluntly, but I've demonstrated that the angry replies just
don't happen. As I have said before and will keep saying, there are a lot
of messages in my inbox from users who are atleast somewhat interested in
becoming members and they are not getting responses right now.
|
aruba
|
|
response 97 of 186:
|
Dec 3 20:41 UTC 2003 |
How about a detailed accounting of all the replies you received? I don't
approve of your methods, but if you have data, quit talking in generalities,
and post the results.
|
jp2test
|
|
response 98 of 186:
|
Dec 3 20:42 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
|
jp2test
|
|
response 99 of 186:
|
Dec 3 20:44 UTC 2003 |
I would love to post hard numbers, but the data is in jp2's inbox.
|
aruba
|
|
response 100 of 186:
|
Dec 3 20:45 UTC 2003 |
Well, you haven't "demonstrated" anything until you do.
|
jp2test
|
|
response 101 of 186:
|
Dec 3 20:54 UTC 2003 |
Well, I have eleven responses I that were forwarded to an offsite account:
Just here for free email: 3
Asked how/why/benefits: 5
Too poor: 1 (explained how grex membership is
a months salary in Hungary)
Random 1 (doesn't want to make Grexers feel
more "smug" than they already do)
From what I saw on Grex prior to forwarding, there was one who simply could
not afford it. Two-three who like the idea, but not at $80/year, and another
dozen or so who didn't know you could become a member and asked what was
involved, etc. That is, obviously, working from memory.
Not great data, but it's still more than anyone else has produced.
|
aruba
|
|
response 102 of 186:
|
Dec 3 21:04 UTC 2003 |
(Dues are $60/year.)
|