response 78 of 218:

Feb 16 00:33 UTC 2006

Has anyone calculated how close someone would need to be to receive 200
pellets from the gun?   Can you shoot 200 of them 30 yards in a straight line?

response 80 of 218:

Feb 16 00:42 UTC 2006

re #79 oh sure, Cheney only had ONE beer.  Anyone really believe that?

response 82 of 218:

Feb 16 01:10 UTC 2006

re #81 according to news reports, instead of going to the hospital, 
Cheney went home and poured himself a good stiff cocktail.

response 84 of 218:

Feb 16 01:43 UTC 2006

my memories from my hunting days are that birdshot is usually #6 shot, a
little smaller than a standard bb and at 30 yards it is close to being
spent, might go a little damage possibly penetrate under the skin but
into the chest, through shirts and orange hunting jacket? I don't think
so. 50 yards would be just like a sprinkle of small hail stones. The
pattern would depend on the choke on the gun.

response 86 of 218:

Feb 16 06:19 UTC 2006

there are 225 pellets in an oz. of #6 shot in a standard 1 oz load for small
game birds.  The pellets are much smaller than a BB, almost half the size.

pattern sepends a lot on barrel length, choke, and the type of shotgun shell
used.

The point is, Cheney was involved in a hunting accident.  He fired his shotgun
adn injured his friend.

Had he been drinking?  I don't know and even if he had not been, came out and
said he had not been, there would still be people saying he must have been.

Going to the hospital would NOT have been an option in the eyes of the secret
service.  Not in the ambulance, not in his own car.  to have done so would
have endangered the life of his friend because 500 reporteres woul ahve shown
up and tried to find out what had happened, distracting the doctors and
hospital operations.

response 88 of 218:

Feb 16 14:06 UTC 2006

I seem to remember back during the Monica Lewinsky scandal right wingers
on Grex were eagerly inventing facts they'd like to see reported.  Some
one claimed that Clinton probably sold Monica drugs too.  I wasn't much
impressed by such speculation then, and I'm not now.  I see no reason
not to believe that we weren't told a reasonable facimile of the truth
in this case.  I mean, if they were going to lie about it, then they'd
claim someone else was holding the gun, wouldn't they?  I think the
facts as they have now been reported might have been shaded a bit -
maybe he had two beers and maybe it was more like 20 yards - but are
essentially accurate.  A bit of macho swaggering and a bit of
inattention to the job at hand are quite enough to lead to an accident
like this without having to assume drunkeness.  I wouldn't condemn
Cheney on the basis of this incident.  On the basis of how he performs
his job on the other hand....

response 90 of 218:

Feb 16 14:36 UTC 2006

>Going to the hospital would NOT have been an option in the eyes of the
>secret service....because 500 reporteres woul ahve shown up

That's a good point.  

It'd be a better point if Cheney had wanted to go the hospital, but he
didn't.  Too bad he didn't think of that; "Secret Service said I
couldn't go" is a much more sympathetic story than "I couldn't be
bothered to go". 

It'd be a better point, too, if they had informed the press in a timely
manner so that there was a danger of reporters showing up.  Regardless,
it would have been a small matter for the SecServ to control access in a
small county hospital.  

>I would very likely have gone to a nearby house and had a drink, 
>myself, if I'd just shot someone accidentally.

Ignoring the question of whether a man with a history of alcoholism and
on a long list of heart medication should be drinking at all, and
ignoring the fact that the VP and his entourage lied about his drinking
that day to the public and the police, then, yeah--me, too.

response 92 of 218:

Feb 16 17:20 UTC 2006

re #78
The choke was wide open according to the report.  They also said the distance
was 30 yards.  Neither jive with a 28 gauge birdshot.  10 yards makes more
sense...and for over 200 pellets to hit you on a wide open choke then we're
talking maybe 4 yards.  Cheney had to be drunk if he was spinning around to
shoot behind the way they were headed directly at another hunter.

re #88
Sex, guns, and violence.  Its a twisted world when gun violence gets less
attention than consentual sex.

response 94 of 218:

Feb 16 17:48 UTC 2006

cheney on his shooting victim:



"good friend"


"friend"


"aquaintance"

response 96 of 218:

Feb 16 18:30 UTC 2006

It strikes me that if one is holding a gun in the usual right-handed 
manner, there is poorer peripheral vision to the right than to the left 
when tracking a moving target, especially if one keeps both eyes open. I'm 
not a hunter so I don't know if this really the case. How is the shooter's 
visual perception different when a right-handed shooter is tracking a 
target to the right or left?

response 98 of 218:

Feb 16 20:55 UTC 2006

I wonder what went through ol' Harry's mind at the crucial moment. 
There can't be anything scarier than having Dick Cheney suddenly turn on
you with a shotgun.

response 100 of 218:

Feb 16 22:44 UTC 2006

"you suck with the mouth you HAVE."

response 102 of 218:

Feb 17 15:07 UTC 2006

>The county shriff, Ramon Salinas, has said that there's no evidence of
>negligence and no charges will be filed:

And a fine investigation it was.  When he got word from "Captain Kirk"
(snicker) that there'd been a shooting involving the VP, and Kirk had
been denied entry to the ranch (by a border patrol agent), Sheriff
Salinas didn't rush right out; instead, he called the former sheriff,
who happens now to be a ranch hand for the very wealthy Ms Armstrong who
owns the ranch where the shooting occured.  The former sheriff said,
"Uh...let me get back to you on that...", and indeed called later to
say, "Mmm...Accident.  Yep, nothing to worry about.   Accident, swear."
 So, Salinas decided not to send anyone out until the next morning.  

Thus far, the sheriff is refusing to release the supporting witness
statements or other coroborrating documents (did he get the victim's
medical report with BAC and wound details?).

Police report:  http://tinyurl.com/ck8nw
Texas Parks and Wildlife report:  http://tinyurl.com/arex4

Other fun tidbits (some from the investigative reports, some not):

* Cheney blasted his victim with an Italian-made Perazzi Brescia, MSRP
$23,000 (what--American-made not good enough for the VP?)

* Cheney said in his interview with Fox that the bird he was after went
to his right, but the sheriff's report says Cheney spun to his left.

* Whittington refused the investigator's request to tape-record the
interview, saying his voice was "raspy". 

* After the 78-year-old man was seriously wounded, Secret Service called
for a helicopter to med-evac him to the nearest trauma center, but the
VP's doctors(?) overruled them, instead opting to send him via ambulance
to a small non-trauma hospital (a long ride over back country roads). 
Very shortly after arriving there, hospital personnel insisted on
sending Whittington via helicopter to the nearest trauma center, where
he eventually arrived more than 2-1/2 hours after being shot.


*