response 76 of 126:

Sep 12 17:24 UTC 2000

RE#74 -- IT has nothing to do with Phillips patents.

response 78 of 126:

Sep 15 03:25 UTC 2000

   ((( Summer Agora #550  now linked as  Music #280, as this 
       Agora rolls over in a week.  )))

response 80 of 126:

Sep 15 14:01 UTC 2000

It is.

response 82 of 126:

Sep 15 14:52 UTC 2000

Re 62.  "Stolen" and "theft" apply to taking away tangible property
without authority.  They DO NOT apply to unrelated kinds of deprivation of
property rights, except as rhetoric or spin. 

For example, if someone who has your property with your permission takes
it for his own use -- that is "conversion", not theft.  One of the
founders of Ann Arbor raised money for his venture by taking his Maryland
neighbors' farm animals to market, promising to bring back the money from
sales; he never did.  A related concept is "fraud".

Another example, if the adjoining property owner builds his house in such
a way that it extends five feet over the property line, depriving you of
many square feet of your land -- that is "encroachment", not theft.

And if someone takes your copyrighted work and republishes it, making vast
profits for himself -- that is "infringement", not theft.

There are specific legal remedies for each of these things, and many more.
But none of the remedies involve using words like "theft" or "steal"
except as rhetoric.

response 84 of 126:

Sep 15 16:43 UTC 2000

How about "vernacular", Larry? In the vernacular, if you take something
that isn't yours, you have "stolen" it. The legal terms apply, of course,
once you enter the courthouse. (I guess it would also be correct to use
the general expression, in place of 'to steal', 'to cause an insecurity
without permission in one's person, houses, papers and effects'.) 

response 86 of 126:

Sep 15 18:37 UTC 2000

copyright infringement is your best entertainment value.

http://www.negativland.com

As an aside, it wasn't clear to me if Paul was talking about making copies
of *his* music or of music from his record collection.
You can make all the copies of *your* music you want and give them to
everyone,
but the music on the CD's in your collection is not *your* music.

response 88 of 126:

Sep 15 19:47 UTC 2000

theft. The act of stealing.
steal. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or
right, esp. secretly or by force.

Copyrighted materials fall under the heading "intellectual property."
property. 4. ownership, right of possession, enjoyment, or disposal, esp. of
something tangible... 8. a written work, play, movie, etc. bought or optioned
for commercial production or distibution.

Source (except for the line starting "Copyrighted"): Random House Webster's
College Dictionary, Random House, New York, 1991.

Same source, incidentally:
murder. the unlawful killing of a person.

So long as abortion is legal, it isn't murder. That's not political rhetoric,
that's a circular claim (since "murder" presupposes legality).

response 90 of 126:

Sep 15 19:56 UTC 2000

Er, I should say, into the "steal" definition.  "Intellectual" modifies
"property" so that the term "intellectual property" no more fits under
"steal" than "road apple" fits under "apple".

response 92 of 126:

Sep 15 22:55 UTC 2000

  I disagree.  I think there *is* a substantial difference between theft
  and copyright infringement.  Obviously you do too, or at least you accept
  that most people recognize one, otherwise why would you care which term 
  is applied.

  I really hate playing the analogy game with this stuff, because I think
  it's ultimately bankrupt as a tool for serious analysis.  Why talk about
  whether it's "like theft", or "like sharing", when we can agree that it's
  important enough to be talked about directly, and not by way of potentially
  deceptive and ultimately inadequate comparisons?

  If you insist on playing the analogy game, though, I'm curious whether
  you consider parking at an expired meter "theft".  If I pull into
  a parking space, put a quarter in the meter for fifteen minutes'
  worth of parking, and stay twenty minutes, have I "stolen" a nickel?
  Does it matter if anyone else would have parked in the space during
  those five minutes?  Does whether or not I intentionally exceeded
  the time allotted have any bearing on the severity of my offense?
  Would my offense be the same if the parking garage was privately owned
  by a family whose sole means of support came from the fees collected
  or is it just as wrong to stick it to the man as it is to cheat the
  independent operrator out of his nickel?

  This sort of indirect analysis is probably pretty fascinating for certain
  types (e.g. Jesuits or rabbinical students) but most of the rest of us 
  seem to realize that you can take it too far..

response 94 of 126:

Sep 16 06:50 UTC 2000

It goes back to the definition of property. 1b applies depending on how wide
you're willing to define property.

I only care because "theft is theft" is easier to say than "infringement is
infringement," and because I feel like this is analretentive obfuscation and
people being difficult rather than discussing the issue.

If I drop a quarter on the ground and somebody picks it up, that isn't theft.
So if i use only part of my parking meter time, and somebody else uses the
rest, they haven't stolen anything. They found something of value that had
been abandoned.

response 96 of 126:

Sep 16 13:51 UTC 2000

Apparently Courtney Love is suing/planning to sue her record company to make
sure she actually gets some of the settlement with mp3.com.

response 98 of 126:

Sep 17 04:45 UTC 2000

HE;s from Gull LAke, MI....I always wanted to see a sign as I drove through
Gull Lake that said "The home of Jason Newsted"///but instead I get to see
that they were the Class D Girls Softball champs in 1986.