response 76 of 159:

Apr 18 05:22 UTC 1996

(What I mean by "being mature about pornography" is recognizing that the
existence of pornography does not reflect on how women like to be treated in
real life.  Or, maybe I should say, a mature person is able to take in
pornography as entertainment, but is still able to act responsibly, and
courteously, and respectfully in real life.  I.e., s/he is able to treat
people as people, not objects.)  Hope that made sense.

response 78 of 159:

Apr 18 13:43 UTC 1996

I haven't held anybody in contempt, either.  I prefer to see people judged
based on their actions.  If somebody watches porn, and then hurts someone,
then by all means hold them accountable for hurting someone.  But don't
punish someone else who reads porn (either by legal means or ostracizing them)
just because they *might* do something bad.  That's discrimination, and it
is similar to the US Military's explanation for not allowing gays to enlist.

I haven't made up my mind on this issue.  If someone could give me 
compelling evidence for mcpoz's theory, that porn has an overall 
influence on our society that you can't see unless you look at the big 
picture, and this influence is overwhelmingly bad, I would certainly have 
to think about it carefully.

Lacking that, though, I think we should fall back on free speech, and the
right to do whatever you want in the privacy of your own home, and general 
tolerance.  I understand, beeswing, that it hurts you to drive past 
Hooters every night.  Maybe you could roll down the car window and shout 
"Pigs!" at it when you go by?  That might make you feel better.  (I'm 
serious - you have as much right to express yourself as they do, and 
certainly a right to your own feelings.)

response 80 of 159:

Apr 19 03:54 UTC 1996

Who needs the services of a stripper?

Anyway, I actually do concern myself with the people behind an image. If I
like a persons' music but discover that they go around treating people like
shit, I won't buy their CD. Just as I won't support a business that I know
treats their employees badly. 

response 82 of 159:

Apr 19 12:53 UTC 1996

Who needs rock CD's?

response 84 of 159:

Apr 19 14:38 UTC 1996

Hmm, seems I've started off something. Let me make a couple of
remarks:
First of all, the very fact that we are discussing this issue as
fervently as is happening here indicates that we are what one may
call sensible people. People that try to think a subject over,
whether which way, it doesn't matter. Therefore I think the
contributers to this item cannot be counted for as standard.

If somebody states that pornography and prostitution keeps rapists off
the streets is very naive. A rapist will rape. The one that are
being kept off the streets weren't potential rapists in the
first place. (I know this is an enormous exaggeration, but it is
a statement.)

Saying that women that participate in prostitution chose to do
so themselves doesn't realize that first: choice can be influenced
by the subconcious (e.g. one that's been raped in the past can consider
her body as not being her own anymore, so why not exploit it?
Is that a reasonable choice?
Second: sex sells andbeing (sub)illegal draws the bad folks.
Folks that don't care about another person's well-being, and
because of these folks it attracks other racketeers like drugdealers
and so on. And not to forget, what is choice if a phoney
acquires women from the third world under the false promise of
offering a place as an au pair (especially girls from the
Phillipenes are victimized in thtat way).
As a resident from Amsterdam I see this almost happening everyday.
Amsterdam after all, is known for its prostitution busniess.
Isn't that dehumanizing a person?
Much of the prono-industry works in the same way.
If you look upon it from a psychological point of view, or
the collonial point of of view you can never mean that women
working in this branche had a real choice to do so.

response 86 of 159:

Apr 19 20:04 UTC 1996

Omni, it's not that comlicated. You're right in that I can'tknow if MegaBucks
Inc is an ethical place. Silly me for wanting to do my part. I do know of
local businesses here that do treat their employees badly, and despite the
fact that it has things I need and like having, I will not shop there. 

response 88 of 159:

Apr 20 02:51 UTC 1996

I just made a brief scan on altavista using the search words PORNOGRAPHY and
DEGRADE.  There are several interesting articles Pro and Con for Porno.  One
article, from an MIT paper, indicated that the policy on Pornography at MIT
was very much favoring it.  As the % women became increasingly large, this
policy was challenged.  It indicated that after watching several pornographic
films, males were more likely to commit date rape and other forms of violence.

Also, it discussed briefly the roles which women take in "porno for men." and
it in the submissive, serving role, or the way men want to see women, not the
way they really are.

Go ahead and scan, there are plenty of articles pro and con - it can give all
of us food for thought.

By the way, even the professors treated women badly after watching porno
movies!

response 90 of 159:

Apr 20 10:25 UTC 1996

re 89:  Yeah, the 2nd paragraph does not make sense - it should read
". . . it is the submissive, . . . ."   and ". . . not the way women realy
are."

Regarding hard numbers, they loosely developed a number of 40 to 80 date rapes
on campus as a result of the pre-class porno-fest.  It probably was not a
significant number, but I think there are serious data-driven studies
elswhere.  If I find one, I will download it and mail it to whoever is
interested.

response 92 of 159:

Apr 20 13:12 UTC 1996

<scott wonders if all the Web searches looking for "sex" are people looking
for titilation, or if they are actually people studying the *amount* of
pornography on the Web)

response 94 of 159:

Apr 22 00:40 UTC 1996

This is a subject that has long been a major concern of mine.  An issue in
my life, really.

You see, I'm firmly with the founder of our country who said
        "I disagree, sir, with what you say.  But I will defend to the death
        your right to say it."
Freedom of speech is one of the things that makes the free world safe.  It
is the one right we must maintain if we hope to remain free.  I would never
advocate censorship.

On the other hand I have a very strong, visceral reaction to pornography. 
The site of it makes my stomache clench and I lose my ability to think
rationally.  It literaly strikes terror into me.  Why?  I have no idea.
It isn't about sex, per se.  I'm pretty free-wheeling sexually.  I have had
casual friendly sex with more people than I can count.  One of the things many
of my partners have remarked on his how uninhibited I am.  Nope.  Sex isn't
scary to me.

Nudity?  Is it the nudity?  Well, I don't think so -- I'm a nudisy at heart
and generally wear as little as is possible/polite under the circumstances.
I also have photographs in my book collection of nudes of various kinds.  They
don't bother me a bit.  I even have an illustrated Kama Sutra.  Nope.  That
alone isn't it, either.

Honestly, I have no idea what the problem is or where it comes from.  Some
pictures and some text just have a very bad effect on me.  I can't even define
which things will have that effect with any efficacy.

Do I think this stuff shouyldn't exist?  Well, I can't say I'd be sad if
tomorrow it all disappeared.  But I would fight actively to prohibit the
legislature from outlawing it, too.

But I can tell you that if I should find that someone I know uses pornography
it *will* change my feelings about them.  It ensures that I could never have
a physical relationship with them -- even to the point of hugs.  It probably
would mean the end of my friendship with them.  It's neither right nor wrong,
I think.  They have the perfect right to read/look at anything they please.
And I have the right to choose my friends and lovers on any basis I prefer.

My life would be so much simpler if I could fit cleanly into either camp.

response 96 of 159:

Apr 22 01:53 UTC 1996

Thanks, Marc.

response 98 of 159:

Apr 22 06:59 UTC 1996

Agree