response 75 of 143:

Oct 6 01:08 UTC 1996

(I agree with ajax's #74).

Warning, serious flamage ahead.


> #55 Richard Wallner(kerouac) on Thu Oct  3 12:29:51 1996:
>  oh cmon, I resent being tld that my posts here drive people away...I
>  only ever try to be constructive.
>  
Richard, your posts DO drive people away, and I'm fucking sick of it.  I
mean really sick.  I know of a staffer who resigned so as not to have to
read your posts.  I can't count how many times I've seriously considered
resigning from staff and board myself, just so I wouldn't have to read YOUR
posts.  Yours kerouac.  You keep the entire co-op conference wrapped around
your finger, chasing after your insane ideas.  People get so busy responding
to you that they can't deal with the serious issues that face Grex, because
they're so busy pouring out energy to appease you.  Further, I truly believe
that you are scaring off new people from becoming regular participants in
co-op.  People read this conference and see a small number of people arguing
with your insane ideas, again and again in every item throughout the
conference, and they decide that Grex co-op isn't something they want to be
a part of.  Those new participants are the lifeblood of Grex.  You, Richard,
are singlehandedly scaring them away.

The only thing that keeps me from resigning from the board and staff is the
fact that Grex has 15,102 other users, who are not Richard Wallner.  I
believe that by *not* resigning, I provide some benefit for those other
15,102 users, and it would be a shame to let one Richard Wallner hurt Grex
for that many other people.

But I'm goddamn sick of this Richard.  Every fucking post you enter pushes
me that much closer to resigning anyway.

>  The last time anyone checked, that I can remember,m
>  grex had fewer people with coop.cf files than it had members, and the
>  percentage of users who actively participate here is pitifully
>  small.  
>  
Two things here:

1) If I remember right, last time anyone counted was just a few weeks after
co-op was re-started.

2) >>YOU<< are driving people away from this conference, Richard.
Single handedly.

> #67 Richard Wallner(kerouac) on Fri Oct  4 16:01:56 1996:
>  I feel that I am a member of this community by the act of my participation
>  on a regular basis.  I would become a member tomorrow if I did not feel
>  that my money would be in effect "buying" a status that I should already
>  have.  
>  
How the FUCK do you think Grex is supposed to pay its bills, Richard?
Where do you think every dollar of the money comes from, to pay for the
electricity, phone bills, and rent, that keep Grex alive so you can use it?
If everybody followed the logic you are using here, none of the regular
users would send in membership dues to pay for these things, and Grex *would*
go bankrupt like M-Net.  As it is, Grex is blessed with about 100 people who
are willing to send in membership money to keep the system running.  What
would happen if they all thought like you do?


Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!


ps.  Why are you constantly declaring Grex "broken" and trying to fix it?
The only big-time broken thing I can think of on all of Grex is that the
co-op conference is dominated by your insane postings, which scare off
other more reasonable people.

[Disclaimer: It's not very constructive for a board member to enter a response
in the "Things that Grex might do better" item telling one user to shut the
fuck up.  It sounds lame to say it here, but: I really am interested in
hearing new ideas from other people.]

response 77 of 143:

Oct 6 12:06 UTC 1996

I would sure hate to see popcorn when she gets really mad! Kerouac never
really bothers me like he (apparently) does staff and board, and sometimes
- usually - I think he is trying to make thoughtful suggestions - at least
that is the intent. It does seem however that Richard might want to do a
little restructuring in the use here -- I have to trust popcorn on the effect
the posts are having on staff -- some change seems to be wise as long as it
continues to allow ideas to flow.  <If this continues I will be looking for
a good contractor to reinforce the Grexbunker!> 

response 79 of 143:

Oct 6 14:20 UTC 1996

(Mary gives Valerie a hug because Mary doesn't know what else to do.)

I ignore him except when I'm in the mood to watch a train wreck.
I also realize it's not always easy for someone to be able
to ignore on demand.  That's the reason for the hug.

response 81 of 143:

Oct 6 16:16 UTC 1996

 > I would become a member tomorrow if I did not feel that my money
 > would be in effect "buying" a status that I should already have.

Why should you?

Look, we promise.  Send in the bucks, and we still won't give you any status.

Or don't give us money.  Go bail out M-Net.  Do it yourself instead of telling
Grex to do it.

response 83 of 143:

Oct 7 00:47 UTC 1996

After wading through this item since my last visit at #9 I was about to slip
way out of character and berate Kerouac, but Val did it for me.  I agree with
her.  I personally spend much less time here than I used to because of, and
only because of, Kerouac.  I have also heard the quiet complaints of many
people about his posts.

I won't try to judge Kerouac's intent with all the posts, but I can expound
on the message that is received from most.  He *tells* people how things are.
He *tells* them how they think and feel.  He *tells* them the correct way to
do or be.  I understand that Kerouac has definite and often strong feelings
on these issues, but he lacks a method to express these things in a way that
doesn't take too much time and insult seemingly nearly everyone on a personal
and community level.  

You may go back and re-read this post with all the explitives that I was going
to put in if you like.  I feel that strongly about this.  I feel this
strongly, not from a personal level, but from seeing the frustration, anger,
and insult that so many others, and now myself, need to express to try to deal
with this situation.  

Damn!  :(

response 85 of 143:

Oct 7 02:48 UTC 1996

<Grin>

response 87 of 143:

Oct 7 08:07 UTC 1996

thank you for the leadership, popcorn.
  

response 89 of 143:

Oct 7 13:19 UTC 1996

It never worked for me on the Sun 3, John.  But I too would like to see it
here (working) whenever I pay up again.

response 91 of 143:

Oct 7 17:35 UTC 1996

I am one of the few non-board member,non-member, justplainuser's who
contributes to this conferences.  I feel I am being criticized because
I simply try to provoke discussion and hit on larger themes here.  If
there is no room to, in an item about what grex can do better, wax
philosophical about its purpose and its structure, I dont understand it.
Valerie, you seem to not want discussion, just one line yes or no 
responses, and god forbid if a response has more than two sentences!

I dont flame people, I dont post for the simple purpose of harassment
like many have done in m-net's policy conf.  My motives, whether you
believe it or not, are pure.  I enjoy Grex, have definite opinions on
what it and the cyber community in general can contribute to society if
organized and operated correctly, and have just been trying to offer my
own contribution, by prevoking debate.  Debate is good!  These issues 
need to be talked about.

The purpose of Coop is or should be, not to massage egos and be simply
cheerleaders, but to provide a place for hard-hitting, meaningful
discussions about what Grex is and where it is going.  I'm just a user
who has ideas and offers them.  And for that Valerie, you flame me?  I really
dont think thats right.  

Instead of flaming me, Valerie, you should have been responding to
the substance of my posts.  What sort of society do you think Grex is
reflecting?  Do you think Grex ought to be working with other boards and
entities in cyberspace or doyou accept rob's more isolationist view, that
grex's purpose is more libertarian in ethic than socialist?  These are decent
things to discuss.  Sodont make it personal.  Constructive criticism is NOT
complaining, it is simply pointingo ut that even in a working situation, there
are always things that can be done better.  

I care about grex. Dont flame me for that ok?  What we need are MORe users
who would come here to work out their typing fetishes, not less!

response 93 of 143:

Oct 7 18:48 UTC 1996

<birdy gives Valerie a standing ovation then a BIG HUG>

response 95 of 143:

Oct 7 21:19 UTC 1996

I wouldn't go quite so far as to say he has to leave, or even should leave.

response 97 of 143:

Oct 7 21:20 UTC 1996

And, well, *I* would go that far, dang, but I'd rather see him shape up rather
than ship out.

response 99 of 143:

Oct 8 04:00 UTC 1996

I think Richard is arguing that people will send Grex money because they want
to, rather than just because they want a vote.  He may be right.  I don't have
any hard numbers on how many people are members only so that they can vote,
but I'm guessing most of our members, while they do want to be able to vote,
are members because they care about the system, just as they want to be able
to vote because they care about the system.  I don't think the sort of system
Richard is advocating would cause Grex to collapse.  I don't think it's a good
idea, either, but that's because I think the people who are funding Grex
should be able to control how their money is being spent.  Let's face it: as
much as Grex is made the sort of system it is by the content of its
conferences, the system would not exist at all without a lot of money, and
a lot of volunteer time.  Without our members, there would not be conferences
for Richard and others to post stuff in.

That said, I've been really tempted at times to say just what Valerie said.
Richard does occasionally have some interesting ideas, but mostly they're
things that for one reason or another just wouldn't work.  That's ok, because
brainstorming is always good.  Lots of other people occasionally suggest
things that wouldn't work, technically.  The difference is that typically,
once it is pointed out why something wouldn't be a workable idea, the person
suggesting it tends to back off.  Richard tends to just keep hammering away
at them.

Then there are his ideas that would work technically, but which have
absolutely no support here, other than from him.  Grex attempting to bail out
M-Net comes to mind.  It was a fine suggestion to make once, and was worth
discussing, once.  We had a reasonably good discussion of it, if I'm
remembering correctly, and came to a consensus (with Richard as the only one
disagreeing), that Grex buying M-Net or merging with M-Net would not be a good
idea.  If it had stopped there, it would have been fine.  What got lots of
people upset is Richard's tendency to bring that up in every single item, over
and over again, never stopping to consider that he might be wrong.  It gets
tiresome after a while.

I believe Richard once commented that he viewed the purpose of computer
conferencing, including the Coop conference, as a forum for debating things,
and he does tend to debate things quite heavily.  The problem here is that
most of the people participating in the Coop conference aren't really
interested in endless debates.  As exciting as Richard finds such debates --
for that matter, as exciting as I find some sort of debates when I have the
free time to take part in them -- most of us here just want to get decisions
made and keep Grex running as efficiently as possible, so that we can use Grex
for things we enjoy a lot more, and then get on with our lives.  As a board
member, I do consider it important to know how the users feel before making
decisions.  Generally it doesn't take too long to figure out how the users,
including Richard are feeling.  That's fine; I have the information I need.
It really doesn't help things to have to spend the next several weeks reading
the same arguments rehashed over and over again.

So, in summary, I do value a lot of your suggestions, Richard.  But, you would
make everybody here a lot happier if, when it becomes apparrent that something
you are advocating either won't work technically or doesn't have any support
from anybody else, *please* just let it drop.  It will make the Coop
conference, and Grex in general, a much better place.