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Grex > Coop7 > #68: A Few Partly-Baked Thoughts About Where We Are and Where We're Headed (115 Lines!) | |
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srw
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response 75 of 137:
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Jul 20 02:09 UTC 1995 |
Kerouac, you have some really good ideas there.
Concerning opening up internet access, you probably don't know this
but we have already decided to open it up for all users, along with
a number of other internet protocols. This decision was made by the members
of Grex in a vote last year, and would have been implemented right away
if we had not had so many hardware and software problems.
Watch for Grex to open up access to many of the heretofore closed
internet protocols when we bring up the Sun-4 running a newer OS
with an updated and less restrictive kernel block.
We do have usenet in our plans for the future. Most of us members
find using nntp to access news over Grex's link like pulling teeth.
Grex should have a usenet capability that does not rely on that
28.8 link. I believe this will happen.
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kerouac
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response 76 of 137:
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Jul 20 03:00 UTC 1995 |
RE: msg #75..Im really glad to hear this. One thing that really needs to
be done though has to do with board meetings. If Grex wants to expand
membership and all that, it must bring these board meetings on-line. Those
of us who live outside of driving distance of ann arbor are *completely*
shut out of these meetings, and if we buy memberships we have no choice but
to read the minutes and hope that our officers are handling things. I would
think that unless something crucial is being voted on, there is no reason
these meetings cant be held on-line on a regular basis. Have a party channel
preset as "meeting" or "board" and anybody who logs on at the time of the
meeting and switches to that channel can attend.
Otherwise, people are excluded from the process and I know grex does not
want this. From what I read of the minutes, the board meetings are poor
er..poorly attended as it it is. Put these meetings on line, give those
of us outside ann arbor the chance to participate, as well as all those
IN ann arbor who dont have the time to go to wherever the meeting is taking
place, and you might get a better consensus about any number of issues. If
Grex truly wants to be an open system, it must open its meetings in whatever
way is possible.
.
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scg
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response 77 of 137:
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Jul 20 04:18 UTC 1995 |
We do a lot of online discussion of policy. In fact, most of the decisions
are made online before we ever get to the board meeting, and most of the board
votes are just approving a concensus that has already been reached. For the
benifit of those who want to participate, but can't make it to the meetings,
this is the way it should be.
However, there's a limit to how much can be done online. No matter how much
we may like online conversations, conversations go faster in person,
generally. It is much easier to ask questions and get imediate answers in
person. It is much easier to look at things in person. Also, I'm sure
there's probbaly a law somewhere saying that votes have to be taken in person.
Unfortunately, people using a system that is hundreds of miles away from where
they are just aren't going to be able to have the same level of involvement
in everything unless they can do a lot of long distance traveling. Grex is
in Ann Arbor, and because of that, that's where the meetings and most of the
get togethers are going to be. I know I wouldn't log into a system in DC and
expect them to completely change their way of functioning because it wasn't
fair to me as a Michigan resident. It might be nice if everythign in the
world I was interested in going to was brought to the Ann Arbor area, but it
isn't going to happen. I can accept that.
This doesn't mean that people outside of this area can't see board meetings.
I don't think anybody would have any objection to somebody videotaping the
meetings (if anybody wants to do that), and video tapes could then be snail
mailed out to people wanting to see them. Another alternative might be some
sort of setup for transmitting video over the Net. Such systems exist, but
I doubt a lot of people have the necessary stuff on their end to recieve it.
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kerouac
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response 78 of 137:
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Jul 20 04:37 UTC 1995 |
The idea is that grex wants to increase its membership. If it ever
wants to be anything but an ann arbor board it has to do things to
change. By having the board meetings on party, the entire meeting-- not
just the minutes-- would be available, before, during or after the fact.
Grex needs more members, but it cannot be more than what it is already
without such philosophical changes. The bulk of potential new
membership is not in ann arbor, but out on the 'net.
Im guessing that when the decision was made to put grex on the 'net,
the idea was to make it more than just a local board. If this is the
case, everything possible needs to be done to ensure this reality. If
Grex wants new members, it cannot...CANNOT be exclusionary wherever
possible. Do the board meetings online, it cant hurt and it is in
line with the idea of maximizing user involvement. In other words, why
not?
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srw
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response 79 of 137:
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Jul 20 04:54 UTC 1995 |
If a non-local user posts his opinion in coop prior to a staff meeting,
especially if it is related to an agenda item, that comment will be
discussed at the board meeting. It has always worked this way.
If grex really wanted to emphasize memberships from the net, this idea
might be tried perhaps in alternation with ftf board meetings.
A certain number of ftf meetings are required, though.
What does grex want? Can grex want anything?
Recently the board made some decisions which indicate its interest in
promoting the growth of Grex *locally*. That doesn't mean we want to
avoid spending money on resource to help non-A2 users. It just means
that more effort is being spent on increasing local usage.
While there may be no consensus as to what is wanted, I think it would
be excellent for Grex to maintain a good balance between local and non-local
users. I support these attempts to increase local usage, but the goal
should be *balance*..
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davel
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response 80 of 137:
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Jul 20 10:53 UTC 1995 |
kerouac, you said that board meetings are poorly attended. I gather that
you don't have any experience with similar meetings in other volunteer
organizations; I think attendance at Grex's board meetings is pretty
good. Let's put it this way: I think the fraction of the total
user base actively participating in coop discussions is quite a bit
smaller than the fraction of the local user base which attends board
meetings. Anyone who wants to be in on discussions of the issues may
join in right here in coop & will be listened to.
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kerouac
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response 81 of 137:
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Jul 21 00:06 UTC 1995 |
I get the sense that there are people on here who want the old grex, what
exsisted before it joined the 'net and served only the A2 community. But
local boards are a dime a dozen in any community, what grex has slowly--
maybe even unintentionally-- started to transform itself into is much more
special. A free access uncensored board that anybody in the world can use.
I would urge the grex board to seize the potential and not try to hold
back this board from being what it can be. Thats the job of right-wingers
who believe original intents are sacred and any change is evil. I dont
think thats what Grex is all about.
If it is possible for Grexers outside of Ann Arbor to have the same
chance to participate as those who live in A2, then that should be the case.
In the alternative, non-A2ers will always be second class citizens, and with
the current good group running things thats fine. But a separate dues
structure should be put in place. Just as companies often sell different
types of stock for people who intend to have different levels of involvement
in the company, Grex can do the same. Adopt a smaller membership fee for
those in town and out of town who dont want or cant have feasibly, voting
rights but who still want to support Grex. I have introduced several of
my friends in the d.c. area to grex and will continue to do so. Some may
want to be members. It would be easier for them to do so if they arent
paying the same member dues as those who are actually able to participate in
formal policy decisions.
Grex is more open than any board Ive ever known, but to outsiders it
often doesnt feel that way. This is a misconception and one that can be
corrected. The question is whether Grex really does want to reach out?
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mju
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response 82 of 137:
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Jul 21 00:54 UTC 1995 |
Perhaps there is some confusion here about the different types of
voting. The votes that all members have a right to participate in
*do* occur on-line. They take place over a period of two weeks (I
think, maybe 10 days?) and are conducted with the "vote" program.
At board meetings, everyone (members and non-members alike) is welcome
to attend, but the only people that can vote on a board resolution are
the board members. Yes, I suppose there is the practical matter that
it would be very difficult for a board member to be a non-Ann Arbor
resident. (Although it's probably possible if they live within a 3-4
hour drive of Ann Arbor; it wouldn't be that hard for one of our
Gaylord users to be a board member, for instance.)
Membership dues are also not all that high. If Grex were asking for
as much money as M-Net asks for a patronship ($150/year, or at least
that's how much it was the last time I was one), your request might
bear looking into. But when dues are just $0.20/day (if you pay
monthly; the yearly rate is only $0.16/day) I have trouble believing
that there are people who can afford a computer, modem, and telephone
line but can't afford a membership. (Perhaps this will change as we
get more users from public-access points, like the Gaylord library.)
I think STeve Andre's son Damon once determined that he could pay for
a Grex membership by collecting discarded soda cans and returning them
for the $0.10 deposit. Grex is much less expensive than other on-line
services, which frequently charge $10 for as little as 10 hours/month
of on-line time. A shell account with an ISP can be as much as
$20/month, plus usage fees. Of course Grex caters to a different
audience and provides different services, so a direct comparison is
not appropriate. The closest comparison I can think of is M-Net,
where you pay 2.5 times as much per year and get to deal with M-Net
politics as an extra-special bonus prize.
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remmers
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response 83 of 137:
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Jul 21 10:31 UTC 1995 |
Marc is correct -- votes in which the whole membership participates
take place online, via a vote program, and any member can participate
in them, whether they live two blocks from Grex or on the other
side of the world. The only votes that take place at board meetings
are votes on motions by the board members themselves. Being "local"
doesn't give a member any extra voting opportunities.
(Regarding M-Net: Arbornet recently decoupled voting memberships from
M-Net patronships. A voting membership in Arbornet is now $20/year
and entitles one to vote in board elections but gives no extra access
privileges to M-Net. An M-Net patronship by itself is still $150 a
year, I believe, but no longer confers any voting rights. When
Arbornet did this, they also restricted membership eligibility to
Michigan residents, but I believe they've backed off on that one.)
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carson
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response 84 of 137:
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Jul 21 18:52 UTC 1995 |
(re m-net: they haven't backed off just yet...)
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kerouac
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response 85 of 137:
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Jul 23 00:20 UTC 1995 |
I read an article where a local computer board in california, some freenet,
is sponsoring its own internet cafe. I guess they offer net 'access on
their public terminals but use it to advertise their own board.
Seems like it might be a great idea if Grex could get a partner and go
into the 'net cafe business. Call it the "Grex Cafe"-- and unlike these
guys in california, Grex could offer immediate access to anyone who walked
in the door. Whoever ran the place could have free use of the Grex name
in exchange for space in the back of the restaurant for Grex to live, thus
saving rent on the dungeon.
I can see it now. Legions of people filing into the coolest coffee shop
in A2, "The Grex Cafe", with a big sign out front advertising free internet
access and automatic grex access within five minutes. Grex T-shirts and
mugs available behind the counter, next to the wall filled with flyers
describing the different confs and the stacks of forms to buy memberships.
Sound far-fetched? Yep...probably...*sigh&
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scg
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response 86 of 137:
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Jul 23 01:26 UTC 1995 |
popcorn is opening an Internet cafe in Ann Arbor, and rumor has it that there
may be another one opening up soon also. Grex doesn't have the funds to
bankroll such a place, and it's probably better for Grex not to be
commercialized in that way. As long as other people are doing it anyway, it
doesn't seem worth Grex seriously considering doing that itself, even if Grex
did have the funds.
On a side note, Grex really wouldn't gain that much by not having to pay rent
on the Dungeon. Dungeon rent is $25 per month. Grex's big expenses are
electricity and phone lines, and hardware when we get new hardware.
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kerouac
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response 87 of 137:
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Jul 23 01:49 UTC 1995 |
I just thought it might be an interesting way to sell grex memberships,
since verification could be done on sight. Popcorn's "gigabytes" soudns
like a cool idea though, but I wonder if its legally feasible to sell
'net access to minors at these places. Wouldnt want to see pop
...er..popcorn sued by some parents whose kid spent the afternoon reading
alt.sex.beastality at gigabytes. We dont have any net cafes in dc yet so
Ive never even been one, but its a cool concept if its workable
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scg
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response 88 of 137:
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Jul 23 02:52 UTC 1995 |
Public libraries operate on the premise that it's the parents' responsability
to supervise their children. I don't know whether a for profit could operate
on the same premise or not.
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jep
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response 89 of 137:
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Jul 23 12:49 UTC 1995 |
A week ago this item was discussing the reasons for moving or not
moving to Intel architecture. I responded to something Mary Remmers said,
by stating there are a small number of people who can work on Grex's
machinery, and mentioning Greg Cronau's name. This drew a couple of
responses from people (Greg and Mary) who took my comment as being about
Greg. I'm sorry this is so late, but that is not how I intended it.
I still think that change is worth more consideration than it is
getting, by the way, but as perhaps the most technical person here who
thinks that way, and because I have no intention of trying to replace the
excellent technical staff of Grex, nor the ability, I should add, I won't
pursue it at least until the next time it comes up. (-:
Back to the suggestions. Warning: I am here as a spy from Arbornet.
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popcorn
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response 90 of 137:
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Jul 23 16:52 UTC 1995 |
John, you decidedly aren't the only technical person here who thinks that
a move to Intel architecture might be a good idea.
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kerouac
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response 91 of 137:
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Jul 25 19:46 UTC 1995 |
Actually, someone I know on AOL told me heard America On-Line is
negotiating to get into the net cafe business with a line of AOL coffee
shops in partnership with a chain like starbucks. Nothing stays out of the
corporate domain for long *sigh* Of course, those places would obviously
only offer AOL, not the type of general net acccess that popcorn's place
would. But AOL apparently thinks the coffee shop environment is perfect for
people to come in and sample AOL on in-store only AOL accounts. They're
probably right, and its probably only a matter of time before compuserve or
prodigy gets the same idea.
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scott
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response 92 of 137:
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Jul 25 21:50 UTC 1995 |
I saw a flyer up in Weber's (yup, the hotel restaurant) about having AOL
Internet access during (when... happy hour? can't remember). Will the new
karoake be Internet? I hope not.
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kerouac
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response 93 of 137:
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Jul 25 23:52 UTC 1995 |
Actually what some bars have done around here(DC) is to keep a spare
phone connect behind the bar, so people bring in their laptops and plug
em right in and 'net right there at the bar. I saw someone doing that today.
With the dim lights at the bar, its neat to look at the glow of a laptop.
I may have to break down and get one just to be able to do that...
Anyway I think keeping spare phone lines and letting people dial out on
their own, knowing they'll order plenty of beer and food while doing so, is
more practical then netcafes charging $7 connect fees.
Of course if people want to rent the laptops as s
opposed to bringing their own, thats another story...
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popcorn
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response 94 of 137:
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Jul 26 00:05 UTC 1995 |
One of the Internet cafes I visited in New York said that they tried
expecting people to bring their own computers, to plug into wall jacks.
It didn't work. People expected to find desktop computers when they
walked into an Internet cafe.
#set drift=off
So, where *is* Grex headed, and where would we like it to go?
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sidhe
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response 95 of 137:
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Jul 29 19:27 UTC 1995 |
To respond way back to robh:
Rob, I wouldn't be nearly so vocal if it wasn't something that was merely
a "personal problem". I'm very happy you helped out an enthusiastic
newbie.. if you care to recall, that was me, not that long ago.
Dan asked the question, why are our longer-lived members
leaving? Seeing as this is his item, I attepted to explain it.
We'll see where that enthusiastic newbie is 9 months from now,
won't we?
Don't count your newbies before they hatch.
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dpc
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response 96 of 137:
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Jul 29 22:11 UTC 1995 |
Has the loss of renewing members resulted in a decline in cash flow?
If so, how serious is it?
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srw
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response 97 of 137:
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Jul 30 06:31 UTC 1995 |
My understanding is that we still have just over 100 contributing current
members. Dan is justifiably concerned as to why they might be leaving,
but there does not appear to be a decline in cash flow. We still have
inadequate cash to do the things we want, but it is not worse than before.
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popcorn
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response 98 of 137:
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Jul 30 11:18 UTC 1995 |
Right: the number of members has remained about constant. The concern
is that it should be growing proportionately to the number of users on
Grex, when instead the total number of members is staying about the same.
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srw
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response 99 of 137:
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Jul 31 06:07 UTC 1995 |
Well, the number of users on Grex is staying about the same, too.
In fact, it's slightly shrinking. We have about 7350, today, and a few
months ago we had above 8000. I think this is not a secular change, but
rather a seasonal one. Tis the season to be reaped.
Anyway, I don't see it as amything to be conerned about.
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