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| Author |
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| 25 new of 129 responses total. |
sidhe
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response 75 of 129:
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Nov 17 03:55 UTC 1995 |
Well, the address issue is clear- it's not supposed to be so
easily available.
As to the landlord trouble- _talk_ with her! No conflict was
ever truly resolved by verbal silence. Perhaps there is something
relatively small to us that particularly bothers her, that could be
compenstaed for until we find a better home.
Of course, that does state that I do not wish to see us stay
where the machinery is in peril. A lot of hard work was put into
not only the room, but the machinery as well, and I'd hate to see
it caught in an "accidental" basement flooding..
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mdw
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response 76 of 129:
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Nov 17 04:46 UTC 1995 |
Grex staff can't tell anyone their password. The system only stores
encrypted passwords.
Forget the fbi; any large organization that cares to have access to
grubby personal information about you can get it. All it takes is an
SS# & an account with TRW. (And even the SS# isn't mandatory; merely
helpful). If you really want to hide from TRW, the FBI, or the secret
service, learn how these organizations work first. Nevermind grex,
bigger problems are you can't own property, keep a job, drive, or bank.
It's a rough lifestyle, one few would willingly undertake. The policies
grex follows for electronic privacy are almost exactly those described
by EPCA; if you check the law, it's pretty specific & fair.
When dealing with internet abuse, it has nearly always turned out to be
a person from another site, who is usually bound by the "conditions of
use" policy of that site. Currently, we do turn over "confidential
address" information, if there seems to be clear evidence that that
account was in fact being used for illegal purposes, such as breaking
into other people's computers, or passing stolen software. My belief is
that most people would agree this is the right thing to do, but if there
is a significant number of people opposed to this, perhaps we ought to
discuss how much risk and liability grex should assume in these matters.
We have not yet had an intersection of "confidential address"
information & a presidential death threat - in the cases that have
arisen; people at other sites have used grex merely as an "anonymous
remailer"; a futile attempt at best because the mail headers normally
attached to e-mail for delivery auditing purposes also make it clear
where the mail really came from. Again, if there's a significant number
of people who think we ought not turn over such information in such
cases, we ought to investigate the risk & make an informed decision.
The landlord situation is not a rational problem; it's silly to expect
rational solutions to work.
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popcorn
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response 77 of 129:
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Nov 17 04:49 UTC 1995 |
Re 74:
1) When people send in ID to become validated users, that's a board function,
not a staff function. Danr, who is on the board but not the staff, is
currently the keeper of that information.
2) Nobody on Grex is about to divulge that information, nor passwords, nor
e-mail access, to the secret service or any other government agency, unless
that agency has a court order. In the history of Grex, no agency has ever
shown up asking for that kind of information, with or without a court order.
Re 75: I've tried talking to her, but it's hard. When I call, I reach the
answering machine or the landlord's daughter. When I've seen the landlord
in person, I've greeted her with a cheery hello and she's gone hurrying off
in another direction to avoid me. I'm a big believer in open communication,
and I'd very much like to hear what's on her mind.
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popcorn
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response 78 of 129:
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Nov 17 04:50 UTC 1995 |
(Marcus slipped in.)
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popcorn
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response 79 of 129:
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Nov 17 04:52 UTC 1995 |
Note that in #76 Marcus is talking about the unverified name and address
information that people give to newuser. In #77 I'm talking about verified
ID information that people have mailed to Grex's treasurer. We have never
given out verified ID information.
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adbarr
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response 80 of 129:
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Nov 17 10:57 UTC 1995 |
Re: the landlord. I think Marcus is right, this does not seem to be a rational
situation. Grex may be completely in the right, morally and legally. However,
you are faced with malicious behavior, apparent refusal to communicate
on an adult, rational level, a vulnerable physical situation, and a very small
"legal defense" fund. I belive there are social and legal equivalents of
black holes in our society and it is not hard to be drawn in to an abyss of
problems where all solutions are measured in pain to varying degrees. The
signals are pretty strong here. It ain't right, but it sure looks dangerous
to me.
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albaugh
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response 81 of 129:
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Nov 17 17:01 UTC 1995 |
Re: power outages: Forgive my ignorance if this has been discussed before
elsewhere, but is "grex" hooked up to an UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) ?
Specifically, an UPS that can provide a signal that software (e.g. unix
daemon) can detect, and orderly bring down the system, awaiting the UPS
battery being drained? I don't know the capabilities of all such UPSes, but
naturally you woulnd't want this signal sent for a "burp" type event, such as
a nearby lightning strike, but only when the power is off for some sustained
amount of time, such that you should assume that power is not coming back.
This would still require human intervention, to reset the system, but at
least grex would be spared the sudden shock of losing power without warning.
Thoughts?
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scott
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response 82 of 129:
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Nov 17 17:03 UTC 1995 |
It's in the works. Grex is currently attached to a ferroresonant transformer
power conditioner, but no UPS (it would have to be a big one). Any
reasonably affordable UPS wouldn't have helped in this case, since it was out
for several hours. Might have been nice to shut down more gracefully, though.
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albaugh
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response 83 of 129:
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Nov 17 18:24 UTC 1995 |
Yeah, the role of an UPS with an unattended machine is to keep the power on
long enough for the system - that has been notified of an impending loss of
power - to have time to shut itself down gracefully. After that, the UPS
can simply run down its battery. Of course, if one could determine remotely
that power were restored to the site of the system, one could use technology
to allow a dial-in line to reset the system to reboot itself, assuming such
rebooting could be done unattended.
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steve
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response 84 of 129:
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Nov 17 19:25 UTC 1995 |
Kevin, a UPS capable of running all of Grex for a couple of
hours will cost a LOT unforunately. When we'd talked about UPSs
before, we were thinking of enough power to run the system for
something less than half an hour. Since nearly all power outages
are less than 20 seconds in duration, being able to cover that last
5% of longer period downtimes is going to cost us a significant
amount more. I don't think its worth it, unless we could get a
really good deal on one. A smaller UPS that could feed Grex for
10 minutes or so is much cheaper.
As far as records go, I'll state right here and now that I
won't give over email or whatever without a fight if I'm told
to do something and there isn't a court order attached to it.
The newuser records for problem people have been universally
BS when it comes to folks that have done something bad here.
Seems that most slime just don't want to give their address.
Login records are a matter of public record--anyone can do a
'last' command and stuff the outout in a file if they want, and
keep that data elsewhere, too. We even had a user in 1992 who
did just that. Process accounting records are usually not even
on the system anyone when we find out that anything "bad" has
happened, since it takes most places a long time in getting to
us to say something. So, e-mail is the only big issue here,
and, we have the ECPA to help protect us. I'm quite confident
that we aren't going to have our disk stolen from us, in order
to "find things out", not after decisions like the Steve Jackson
Games court decision. But I sure won't hand 'em over untill
I see a court order.
Kerouac, you're concerns about Grex with regard to getting a
security clearance are justified. I know that a couple of people
who participated in the M-Net "gay" conference were directly asked
about their participarion of that conference, and other questions
related to homosexuality in general. The solution to this sort of
problem is never to work at the US government. If you're concerned
about getting a security clearance in the future, you may have a
problem. Since it's happened with M-Net, it will surely happen to
Grex. I view that as a problem with the completely idiotic system
of background checks that the American government does, and not a
problem with Grex.
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gregc
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response 85 of 129:
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Nov 17 19:30 UTC 1995 |
Yes, the technology speculatedd about in #83 is available. It would
just require $$$ to prurchase and staff time to implement the software
and install the hardware. Most UPS's these days have 2 different outputs.
One is a "I just lost AC power" output, and the other is "I'm down to XX
minutes of battery power". You'd use the second signal to know that the power
has been off for more than just a brief glitch and it was time to begin a
an orderly shutdown procedure, but the first would also be usefule, becasue
it could be used as a signal to send email to all off-site staf members
so somebody *knows* that the power might be off.
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albaugh
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response 86 of 129:
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Nov 17 20:01 UTC 1995 |
Just to clarify: I'm talking about an UPS with probably no more than 10
minutes of reserve battery power. That would be enough to run for 5 mintues
without line power, decide that power probably ain't gonna be restored,
notify the system so that it can notify users that it's shutting down pronto,
and 5 more minutes to allow the system to shut down and wait for the end. ;-)
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steve
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response 87 of 129:
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Nov 17 22:35 UTC 1995 |
That we can do, given the money. We'd have to spend $600 or more
(probably more, espically if the future news machine is included) for
this.
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wisdom
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response 88 of 129:
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Nov 18 00:51 UTC 1995 |
Heh. If the Landlord isn't behaving, sue her ass off. If she wrecks
the equipment, sue her for enough damages to get a really fast system!
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adbarr
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response 89 of 129:
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Nov 18 00:58 UTC 1995 |
Before you seek your remedy in the form of lawsuits seeking money damages,
it is wise to check whether the potential judgment debtor has got a pot to
piss in. <Old Russian proverb> <from one who spent $21 K to collect $20 K>
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wisdom
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response 90 of 129:
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Nov 18 22:27 UTC 1995 |
Okay, does she?
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mta
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response 91 of 129:
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Nov 19 00:00 UTC 1995 |
Lawsuits, although possibly justified and probably a good "big stick"
to have in hand if things really get out of hand, should be a last resort.
One possibility is to call a meeting with attorneys for all three major
player (GREX, and the he and she landowners) with the specified intent
of resolving what exactly are the daily nuisances and what can we do
about them that is reasonable from all perspectives. If, as seems poosible,
our mere existance is more emotional strain that our landowner #2 can stand,
we obviously won't get far. But if the annoyances are genuine we
may well be able to moderate some of them to the point of livability
for everyone. If not in perpetuity than at least long enough to find
a good place to move to and to move in an orderly and reasonable way.
Calling it a loss after a genuine attempt to sort things out is quite
a bit different than running when times get tough.
I'll admit that the "cowbay mentality" as Mary refers to it, is quite a bit
more satisfying than the idea of persisting in trying to communicate with
someone who obviously hopes we'll just run away. But in the end, I think
it's less productive. We still won't know what the real problem was. Is
it a case of a woman feeling vulnerable in her home because an unknown
number of stangers (including lots of men) have access to her home 24
hours a day? Is it a case of beeps and whistles and unrelenting heat
being generated and pumped directly into her apartment? Is it a case of
someone with an adversarial mindset who desperatly needs to get a life?
As far as we can tell, all three are equally likely.
In the first two cases we have situations that, while uncomfortable to
deal with, could be worked out rationally. In the latter, we can't win
because every attempt on out part can be seen as an exciting event
that proves we're the bad guys and keep harassing her, which makes her
completely justified in whatever she does.
If she won't deal with us face to face in person, and her treatment of Valerie
(our resident diplomat) suggests that she has no intention of doing that,
then bringing in moderators is a possibility. Hopefully it can be done
in as non0antagonistic a way as possible. There are (amuicus currae?) groups
whose entire purpose is to moderate in this kind of situation so that
a law suit doesn't become necessary. Does anyone know how that works?
I'd be more than happy to do whatever I can to help. Until after the
wedding on Dec 16, that won't be much, but after that just let me know.
(I look killer in a black wool suit and might convince almost anyone
that I'm actually a respectable grown-up <grin>.
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chelsea
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response 92 of 129:
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Nov 19 02:46 UTC 1995 |
Wedding?
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srw
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response 93 of 129:
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Nov 19 04:54 UTC 1995 |
Wedding?
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gregc
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response 94 of 129:
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Nov 19 14:36 UTC 1995 |
I've been wondering if the modem noise or a phone left plugged in has
been bothering someone too. The problem is, nobody has ever complained to
us about it, or pointed it out as a problem. If it *is* a problem, why
havn't thye/she told us???
As for the heat or possible noise being a direct annoyance to the
landlord, it's not likely. She lives in the top floor apartment. There
is *no* way the heat could get that high or the noise. However, it could
be bothering one of the downstairs tenents and they could be complaining to
her, so it could be a secondary annoyance.
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adbarr
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response 95 of 129:
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Nov 19 14:54 UTC 1995 |
Nuptials? <Ford invented weddings.>
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popcorn
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response 96 of 129:
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Nov 19 17:25 UTC 1995 |
Misti's friend Larry's mother is getting married.
(The first time I heard Misti mention a wedding, my ears
perked up too.) I think we would hear more about it if
it were Misti herself getting married. I think.
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srw
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response 97 of 129:
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Nov 19 18:49 UTC 1995 |
I think Misti just listed those issues as possible issues that conceivably
could be revealed if we all got together as she suggested. I think the
suggestion about getting together is quite reasonable sounding to me.
Communication is always a good thing.
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mdw
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response 98 of 129:
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Nov 22 01:54 UTC 1995 |
My impression of the landlords is that grex couldn't afford the kind of
extended dialog of lawyers talking to lawyers that would be required to
make sense out of nothing. Makes more sense to move if it comes to
that.
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kerouac
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response 99 of 129:
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Nov 22 02:32 UTC 1995 |
I'll bet the secret service told her that she might be liable if
grex ever gets sued. Perhaps a contract could be signed guaranteeing
Cyberspace .inc would pay any legal bills or claims that she might ever
incur as a result of giving grex a home. She'll feel safe as long
as she's indemnified maybe.
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