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Grex > Coop7 > #21: Letting people know about limitations on Grex | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 102 responses total. |
rcurl
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response 75 of 102:
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Mar 27 07:54 UTC 1995 |
re #62: no, grex does not "charge" for access. It is a privilege currently
accorded members only (people that donate more than the minimum) because
our link cannot support unlimited access. There are many that think that
if we had a link that could support it, the privilege would not be
restricted.
How about, "internet semi-provider"?
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ajax
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response 76 of 102:
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Mar 27 16:47 UTC 1995 |
I like semi-provider :). I think a stickling point in this discussion is
that terms like "internet provider" and "conferencing system" really don't
have clear definitions. I still think that even by STeve's definition, "an
Internet provider is an entity that distributes the ability to get on the net
to others," Grex is one. A slow, restricted one, or maybe a subjectively
"unreasonable" one, as STeve puts it, but it still fits his definition.
Grex is no less a conferencing system just because it's a really slow and
(to some) "unreasonable" one :-). Also, being primarily a conferencing
system doesn't preclude also being an IP...America On-Line is both.
However, to tie this back to the practical origins of the discussion, I
get the impression most people here believe that Grex is in no way an
Internet provider, and that we should inform new users of this. The main
question then seems to be how harshly to word the limitations, like whether
to use all upper case. I mildly prefer succinct wording in lower case.
(Re #70...MUD still *is* something you play in...only on the Internet,
it's a Multi-User Dimension (depending on your acronym source)...basically
a text-based virtual reality game/hangout :-).
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popcorn
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response 77 of 102:
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Mar 27 18:20 UTC 1995 |
My favorite answer to these definitions questions is: Instead of trying
to stick labels on it, just let Grex be a Grex -- whatever that is.
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nephi
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response 78 of 102:
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Mar 28 02:38 UTC 1995 |
(So don't put *anything* in newuser?)
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popcorn
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response 79 of 102:
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Mar 28 02:53 UTC 1995 |
Well, no... a Grex, whatever that is, doesn't cope well with mounds
of e-mail traffic and big ftp file transfers.
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davel
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response 80 of 102:
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Mar 28 03:32 UTC 1995 |
... and once again, ideals bow to practicality.
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steve
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response 81 of 102:
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Mar 28 05:09 UTC 1995 |
Rob, I think we're splitting a few too many hairs here.
Yes, in the technical sense of the word Grex is an Internet provider.
But we aren't.
This is really important, too. If we say we are. we're going to
be completely swamped, people will get pissed and leave Grex, our
membership base will erode, and we'll be screwed, to put it frankly.
Grex is not an Internet provider. We are a conferencing system,
along with other things. That is something that Grex can do really
well, and there aren't a lot of other places on the net that think
of conferencing like we do. It's a niche that we can fit in quite
well.
Consider saying that Grex is something else. If we had even
five people running FTP at once, everything on the system would
suffer. All the other people using Grex would suffer, and the five
running FTP would see, at absolute best, a tansfer rate f 1152
characters a second, assuming a 2:1 compression ratio, with nothing
else using any net bandwidth at all. This is of course, impossible.
Grex does other things all the time.
Given the fact that Grex
- doesn't have reasonable net access,
- can't legally pass along a net connection to dial up users so
they can't run PPP for GUI applications on their own machine
like Mosaic,
- has a pathetically slow CPU, and even with the next planned
upgrade to a SPARC will still be unreasonably slow,
- has a small modem pool that isn't even yet at 14.4Kbps yet,
- has no usenet system running,
- and doesn't have the staff resources to cater to "customers",
It all adds up to the fact that Grex is not an Internet provider.
We're having to come to terms with the limited resources that we have
available to us:
- We can expand disk, nearly infinately (we could put many more
gigs on Grex, and will, given the prices lately). Estimated cost:
$600 for a cheaper 2G disk as of March '95. Will continue to get
cheaper for a while.
- We can expand memory to 128M, which we just did as of 3/27/95
(we're testing a 32M memory board that will get back to mdw in a couple
of weeks). Estimated cost: $400 per 32M memory board.
- We can expand CPU power by a factor of three "easily" (like
with about 200 hours of staff time or so), and then expand to future
SPARCs more easily in the future. Estimated cost: $4000 for a Sparc
Station2 with something around 64M memory, and would be around six
times faster than our current system, about three times faster than
our Sun-4/200 card that we just got).
- We can go to 15 dialin lines with the serial card we have now,
and when we make the switch to a terminal server, could go to 16 or
32 lines, and probably run a couple of them if we really grew.
Estimated cost: $700 for a 16 port terminal server (used), but maybe
less if we find someone dumping them.
- We can expand our Internet link, from our current 28.8Kbps,
all the way up to 45mega bits per second. Estimated cost:
unbelieveable.
+ A 128K ISDN link: initial hardware cost, maybe around $1600,
monthly cost: $500.
+ Multiplexed ISDN system: probably an extra $3000 for the
multiplexer (I have conflicting data on this), plus the preceeding
128K costs. So figure $1000/mo for a 256K connection.
+ A "T1" link. 1.544Mbps. About $5000 for some used hardware,
plus $1500 a month connection costs.
+ A "T3" link. Mucho dinero. Easily $8K initially, easily $5K
a month.
Of all the things I mentioned, it is the Internet connection that
is hard to do. It is expensive, and the faster connections will most
likely remain unavailable to Grex for quite some time.
We're at a crossroads, folks. While we have some of the attributes
of a real Internet provider, we aren't.
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selena
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response 82 of 102:
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Mar 28 05:30 UTC 1995 |
Hm. Given that I've seen a lot of "let's stick to getting more A2
people here" in this cf, I'd guess that the internet connection WON'T
be a priority, then..
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lilmo
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response 83 of 102:
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Mar 28 05:45 UTC 1995 |
I would have to say, selena, that I telnet in, (using that 28.8K modem), and
it is almost never "unreasonably" slow, as far as cf'ing goes. Maybe one call
in three is made at a bad time of day (i.e., busy time), but usually I get
pretty much "instant response" from halfway across the country.
Re #81: Could we expand the Internet link by using two lines, instead of
upgrading our current line? Just a thought...
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steve
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response 84 of 102:
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Mar 28 05:53 UTC 1995 |
It's not that getting a bigger Internet connection isn't a priority,
but that it's *expensive*. Expensive initially for the hardware (but
certainly doable), and expensive in terms of monthly costs. $500 a
month to keep it feed. $500 a month is more than our current phone
and electric bills, by about a factor of two. *That is a huge increase
for Grex*.
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srw
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response 85 of 102:
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Mar 28 05:58 UTC 1995 |
What STeve has been saying all along is that the term "Internet Provider"
is perceived by nearly everyone as an organization offering a collection
of services that Grex doesn't and can't offer. To call us one is misleading.
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steve
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response 86 of 102:
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Mar 28 06:22 UTC 1995 |
(Except that *I* used more words! Thanks Steve)
Mark, we could indeed double our speed by getting two lines, another
set of modei, and hardware to multiplex things, but there would be the
added monthly cost for the Internet conectivity. I have no idea of what
that would cost. I'll bet however, that ISDN would look better in terms
of K per dollar, and would certainly be easier than getting a system
together to use two modei together.
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rcurl
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response 87 of 102:
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Mar 28 07:50 UTC 1995 |
Well, since STeve didn't salute calling us a semi-provider, I offer
for consideration: deciprovider, centiprovider and milliprovider. One
should fit.
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remmers
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response 88 of 102:
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Mar 28 10:45 UTC 1995 |
Obviously we're a picoprovider.
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steve
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response 89 of 102:
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Mar 28 14:34 UTC 1995 |
Grex: barely on the Internet. Almost on the net. Sortof on the
net.
Grex, Internet welfare.
Grex, a flophouse by the side of the Information Superhighway.
I could go on.
;-)
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gregc
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response 90 of 102:
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Mar 28 16:58 UTC 1995 |
Grex, Internet SoupKitchen
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selena
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response 91 of 102:
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Mar 28 18:28 UTC 1995 |
<giggle>
Am I a parlor strumpet, then? :}
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ajax
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response 92 of 102:
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Mar 28 21:14 UTC 1995 |
Re #88, that's baaad!! :) I think "Grex: your dirt road onto the info
superhighway" was in the publicity cf...that's one my faves.
STeve, indeed it's hair-splitting...I agree on all your facts, I just
reach a different conclusion: we're a slow, limited internet provider. But
as I said, I realize that's a minority view. I left "we're not..." in the
one-screen limitations text I suggested, I just converted to lower case.
On a more constructive note, if the upper case of "we're not an internet
provider" is restored, what do you think of the rest of my one-screen
version of the limitations text (response 43)? If you don't like it, as I
said before, comments on the existing one are in /u/ajax/limits. One of
the perhaps less controversial suggestions is changing the title from
"Limititations" to "Limitations." :)
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nephi
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response 93 of 102:
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Mar 29 03:03 UTC 1995 |
Oh my goodness! That's in newuser, too!
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steve
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response 94 of 102:
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Mar 29 04:10 UTC 1995 |
Thanks Rob--that one I just fixed. Someday I'll learn how to spell. ;-)
I need to reread the wording, and I'll get back to everybody on it.
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tsty
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response 95 of 102:
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Mar 29 09:09 UTC 1995 |
I haven't read the intervening responses since #74, but a couple
minutes later it dawned on me that the transfer rate was 15 Mbytes
per second, not 15 Kbytes ...
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lilmo
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response 96 of 102:
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Mar 29 15:24 UTC 1995 |
Re #92: I have to agree whole-heartedllly with your first paragraph there!!
Some might say that an Internet Provider (tm) myst provide SLiP or PPP to
qualify for that designation -- obviously Grex is outside THAT def'n.
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tsty
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response 97 of 102:
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Mar 30 02:13 UTC 1995 |
What, if any,would be the distinction between providing
an Internet machine for dialup connections (as Grex seems to be), and
providing "your machine as an Internet address" through dialup (which
sees to be the ppp/slfp/tia/WhatEverElseIsOutThere result?
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steve
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response 98 of 102:
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Mar 30 03:49 UTC 1995 |
The distinction is that anyone who tries to market a machine that
others can use as a gateway had better be fast enough to do the job.
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nephi
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response 99 of 102:
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Mar 30 07:22 UTC 1995 |
Put it this way. The other night, there were only seven people online
and the load average was about 2, so I decided to try to download
the Agora10 conference again. (Grex's router dropped me the other
three times I tried it.) I had to transfer it item by item and found
that the transfer rate peaked at 2.5 kbps, and averaged less than
1kbps, sometimes dipping to .3kbps!
I would definitely say that Grex is not an Internet provider.
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