|
|
| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 110 responses total. |
yoyo
|
|
response 75 of 110:
| 
May 7 08:56 UTC 1996 |
And whats your security Clearence Citizen there are how many high programers
are there
????
I'm sorry that information is not availibe at this time
|
steve
|
|
response 76 of 110:
|
May 7 13:53 UTC 1996 |
Richard, if Grex were a paying organization, and had real full-time
people on board, then I would agree with you, 11 would be a little
high.
However, Grex can't pay people, and this is one hell of a big
system now. Grex never sleeps, and forunately, usually someone
from staff is on, or available on short notice 24 hours a day for
problems.
Given that we don't have set schedules for system administrators
to monitor things, we need more than the usual number of roots
so we can deal with problems. Yes, Grex has more root personel than
M-Net, and it shows. Overall, when something is broken and needs a
root to fix it, Grex's problems get fixed faster than M-Net's do.
The biggest problem with having so many roots about isn't so
much security, as to keep from bumping into each other. If something
requires root access to do something, it gets logged in a "what I did"
item in the staff conference. That way, we usually wind up telling
others what we've done, and usually don't step on each others feet.
Is it perfect? Nope. There have been about 5 incidents now, in the
last several years where one root's doing something was noticed by
another, and the second "corrected" something. It hasn't happened
very often, and I'm really pleased with the way things have gone.
Grex has more roots running about for a small organization than
I've ever seen elsewhere and it has the fewest number of root-related
problems. The fewest.
|
janc
|
|
response 77 of 110:
|
May 7 17:55 UTC 1996 |
I've never seen a system with such an oversupply of technical talent. Most
public access systems seem to either hire a small number of people (and always
have problems with them), or lean way too hard on way too few volunteers. So
far, whatever Grex is doing seems to work. I don't see any reason to try to
change things for theoretical reasons.
|
gregc
|
|
response 78 of 110:
|
May 7 20:54 UTC 1996 |
I'm sorry Kerouac, I must have missed something. You obviously have a
great deal of training in computer science and system administration,
and years of experience that qualifies you to make the statement you did
in #71. And I'm sure you can produce ample evidence showing the ideal
user/root ratio.
Yes, I thoought not.
Kerouac's statements are an excellant example of why I don't like to talk
about system technical subjects in public forums. Everyone with a keyboard
decides to become an armchair quarterback and micro-manage things that
they havn't the slightest experience or qualifications to do so.
|
kerouac
|
|
response 79 of 110:
|
May 7 23:31 UTC 1996 |
gregc, I admit I dont have the tech expertise, all I was saying is that
the more widely circulated the root pw and what can be done with it, the
more likely you are to have security problems. Grex is obviously better
maintained than m-net, but one day there may come one issue or another that
REALLY divides staff. This is the sort of thing better discussed now
than later. I have great respect for what current staff does greg, dont
make this personal. Grex has a lot of roots and the topic should be brought
up once in a while
|
arthurp
|
|
response 80 of 110:
|
May 7 23:47 UTC 1996 |
Well, Earth has an unfortunate encounter with a large astronomical object
about every 64,000 years, so I guess we better elect a committee with a board
vote to plan for this event. I know it isn't likely to happen, but we better
plan for it anyway. Maybe it can be a joint committee to handle the 'too many
roots' 'problem' as well.
Seriously, I think that if such a divisive situation arrises we can trust the
members of board and staff to either work it out or resign gracefully. I
trust them completely to handle their own business with little help from me.
|
scott
|
|
response 81 of 110:
|
May 7 23:56 UTC 1996 |
Staff isn't likely to grab power and have factional fighting like Liberia.
The most likely result of a schism would the formation of a new system to
compete with Grex. Roots are chosen on *trust* more than anything else.
|
kerouac
|
|
response 82 of 110:
|
May 8 01:30 UTC 1996 |
Indeed, wasnt Grex the result of staff infighting on mnet?
|
adbarr
|
|
response 83 of 110:
|
May 8 02:27 UTC 1996 |
In the abstract, kerouac's point is well taken, it just does not seem to apply
to Grex at this time. Grex seems to be extremely well administered from
a technical standpoint. Basic network security does warn against too many
super-user - supervisor - root capable persons. Arthurp -- correct me if I
am mistaken, but I was under the impression that serious astronomers are
conducting watches for just that eventuality -- now. It is sorta like the
story that the odds of dying from the dentists anesthetic are 1 in a million,
but for that 1 person they are 100%. Kerouac, I just have to say I think
this is a non-problem for Grex now. The staff should keep it in mind, and
perhaps think about why they have been so successful, so far. The possibility
of change is always there - just no reason to make radical changes now.
|
steve
|
|
response 84 of 110:
|
May 8 02:36 UTC 1996 |
Richard, Grex was the result of the concept of one person owning
M-Net, rather than a group of people. Infighting? There wasn't much
at all. It was all with how the system should be run, ala policy issues.
|
janc
|
|
response 85 of 110:
|
May 8 04:17 UTC 1996 |
Between Grex and M-Net, some of us have been doing this for about 13 years.
We've suffered all sorts of disagreements among roots and system policy-
makers. Roots have resigned in disgust over policy issues or the actions of
other roots. None has ever, to my knowledge, used their root "power" in any
kind of aggressive way. Actually, even if we suppose a completely inethical
root, it doesn't really transform into any useful kind of power very well.
Pretty much the only thing you could do without getting noticed is eavesdrop
on other people's email and such. The whole idea that root=power is flawed.
|
popcorn
|
|
response 86 of 110:
|
May 8 05:19 UTC 1996 |
I kinda agree with Richard that Grex has too many roots. We needed a lot when
the Sun 3 needed a lot of babysitting. Now that we're on more stable
hardware, there isn't so much stuff for roots to do. However, there's nobody
on staff who I'd want to remove, and the way things are does seem to work
nicely for getting things done and having space for future expansion, so I
don't see a need to downsize.
Re 85: I can think of a small number of incidents where a root on M-Net
used power in an aggressive way. For example, Dave Parks used to :x: people
who he disagreed with. But it's been a *long* time since I've seen any roots,
anywhere, behaving like that.
|
ajax
|
|
response 87 of 110:
|
May 8 06:10 UTC 1996 |
Actually, I've heard rumors that Arbornet's prez still zaps people he
disagrees with, but objective details of such incidents are hard to
come by.
|
steve
|
|
response 88 of 110:
|
May 8 13:17 UTC 1996 |
'Till I hear real data on that, I won't believe that report, either.
Valerie, you're forgetting one thing, that being any set of us
could go 'on leave', in effect with little notice. Jobs have this
habbit of eating up time all of a sudden. With the current number
of roots, we have redundency. Many less than this, and we wouldn't.
As far as :x:'ing goes, I was one of the victims. I can't call
that root abuse, since it was his system. It was a policy decision.
|
popcorn
|
|
response 89 of 110:
|
May 8 13:54 UTC 1996 |
I was :x:ed on M-Net for criticizing Dave. Well, he said he thought my
patronship had run out, but I am not convinced. I guess technically, since
it was his system, that wasn't root abuse, but it wasn't very good use of root
either.
|
steve
|
|
response 90 of 110:
|
May 8 14:23 UTC 1996 |
Heh. Interesting logic: if you don't pay, I'll kill you. ...But
then you can never pay again, eh? Oh well. Ancient history, now.
|
brighn
|
|
response 91 of 110:
|
May 8 16:26 UTC 1996 |
*wonders how relevant a discussion of internal Arbornet politics is
in public here, and wonders how petty and childish M-Netters would
think Grexers to be to see Grexers discussing ancient history and
politics in public*
|
adbarr
|
|
response 92 of 110:
|
May 8 16:51 UTC 1996 |
Well, root abuse must be ruthlessly hunted down and eliminated whenever
and wherever it appears. Why root abuse threatens the fabric of our
society! It is a plague, evil and vile! Look at the Balkans! Look at the
middle east! I could go on and on . . .
|
ajax
|
|
response 93 of 110:
|
May 8 18:47 UTC 1996 |
Brighn, much of *M-Net's* policy conference is mired down in their
ancient history and long-standing feuds! :-)
|
scg
|
|
response 94 of 110:
|
May 9 03:14 UTC 1996 |
I think our high number of staffers makes root abuse a lot harder, rather than
easier. With only one or two roots, it would be easy for them to decide to
seize power and relitively little anybody else could do about it. With a
large number of people who would have to go along with anything abusive for
it to work it's much less likely that something like that could be pulled off.
I don't expect to ever see that sort of abuse here. We simply don't give root
to people we can't trust.
|
mdw
|
|
response 95 of 110:
|
May 9 08:59 UTC 1996 |
Actually, most of the "m-net history" that lead up to the formation of
grex is entirely independent of arbornet, and probably predates any
ancient history or long-standing feuds in m-net's current policy cf.
|
tsty
|
|
response 96 of 110:
|
May 9 10:13 UTC 1996 |
<<historical note: teh M-b0x and Arbornet were independant, isolated
systems until a merger took place.>>
Just think ... if this system paid staff it could imitate ITD and promote
roots who stalked groups of users -- more old, sorry history in the
bravenewworld of cyberslime.
set historyreminder = off
Grex has a fine group of roots who are available in individual time
slices since each one also has a *life* and PaidWork to do elsewhere. The
accumulation of time-slices is what has kept Grex going.
It *might* prove true (much later than now) that 11 roots is more than
is absolutely needed, but i'd rather let them work that out among
themselves.
|
jep
|
|
response 97 of 110:
|
May 9 19:43 UTC 1996 |
I wouldn't have 11 roots on Grex if I were in control of this system.
But it isn't my choice. I haven't noticed any problems having to do with
too many roots. The ones I know are so completely beyond any suspicion of
distrust that I don't spend any time worrying about them, or the ones I
don't know either.
|
selena
|
|
response 98 of 110:
|
May 10 23:45 UTC 1996 |
Okay, here we go..
Richard, you think there's too many roots.
BULLSHIT.
These guys do one hell of a good job because of an extreme balance
of power amongst diverse and intelligent folks.
PERIOD.
|
adbarr
|
|
response 99 of 110:
|
May 10 23:58 UTC 1996 |
Uh, is it safe to come out now?
|
