response 75 of 326:

Oct 4 17:20 UTC 1995

I agree that friends of the former mlady shouldn't freak when they see a
new one.  But they do and my opinion isn't going to change it.  So to
protect newusers from stepping into that unknowingly, reserving the login
is a good idea.

A person who picks "fuckme" as a login knows pretty much what he or she is
getting in to.  If that's what they want, there is no reason we should stop
them.  But a person who picks "mlady" as a login does not know wha they are
getting into.  In that case, it would be very responsible for us to block the
login to protect them from possible unwanted consequences.

response 77 of 326:

Oct 4 19:04 UTC 1995

Re #70: point accepted. I was thinking that the group that wanted
reserved logins wanted something done, and putting forward a proposal
is something they could do. I really have no interest in the board
doing anything unless there is an obvious system-wide (user-wide) need
to address. But if someone put a proposal to the board, of course the
board would address it.

Re #75: there are a zillion things that newusers might step into
unknowlingly, and get hassled about. Rogue gets hassled about his
conservative stance; I hassle religionists (using pure logic, of
course). Are we to take steps to make sure that no newuser gets
hassled about anything? I even think the matter of a dumb login 
is way down the list of things we might want to consider putting
"hassle blocks" in place for. 

response 79 of 326:

Oct 5 00:16 UTC 1995

   It is the responsibility of staff, as I understand it, to maintain
the system physically (hardware and software)   We shouldnt expect staff
to protect our feelings or to otherwise interfere in any way with our
behaviour.  The instant that staff makes the decision to do so, even in
the smallest and most insignificant of ways, it starts a bad trend.  Soon
people will be asking staff to reserve logins of users who have voluntarily
left the system for the same reason, or to reserve offensive logins like
"nigger" or "fuck".    And staff, by making policy in this one instance,
will look like hypocrites for turning down these other requests.  

Debra, I am sorry you got hurt, but you cant expect staff to protect your
feelings.  This can and should be done non-adminstratively, on a case by
case basis, with staff doing what it can to help you forward mail and files
to a new login if you so request.  But if "mlady" is a name near and dear to
you, you had every right to request that login.

   Its the conservative republican fanatics who want to destroy the 
internet in the name of protecting our feelings.  They'd welcome a
policy of reserving deceased logins, olduser logins, obscene logins.
Who knows who'll be running grex years from now, down the road, but policy
is open to misinterpretation and I guarantee -- GUARANTEE-- this is the sort
of policy that can end up being misused.  

response 81 of 326:

Oct 5 02:39 UTC 1995

STOP RIGHT THERE !!!!!!!

rcurl, kerouac, we are not suggesting that users be protected from everything
that might get them hassled.  rcurl, you are nomally pretty reasonable, think
about it:  as janc said, ppl picking a dumb login KNOW what they are getting
into, someone inadvertantly picking the id of a dead user had NO IDEA about
the history behind that id.  The was NO SUGGESTION that we protect users from
anything that they should know about themselves, such as one's political or
religious choices, NONE !!!!  Dumb logins are just that, dumb, and ppl
choosing them get what they deserve, but "mlady", ofr example, is NOT a "dumb
login" !!  It's perfectly reasonable, as Barbara and Debra have shown.

response 83 of 326:

Oct 5 03:55 UTC 1995

Selena, I wasn't criticizing those who love or think they love total
strangers online. I simply said that I don't understand it. If you
can spread around your outlook, surely I can spread mine. I didn't
think my point of view was contagious or anything.

Mlady, you are unbelievably rude and I don't think you can expect
to be treated any better here than you are treating people.

response 85 of 326:

Oct 5 05:04 UTC 1995

Katie, you did use the words "C'mon folks!" in reference to the 
concept of the reality of Net feelings.  That's condescending.
That's not stating your viewpoint, that's being insulting.  But
many of us around here have weak debate and rhetorical skills,
so I suppose you're allowed to have your weaknesses as well.

At any rate, the more I think about this, the more this is like 
the loved ones of the deceased asking the church to keep the 
flowers fresh on the grave b/c the loved ones are forgetful.
It was we who loved Barbra who made the mistake, not Grex staffers.
This possibility should have occurred to us, and one of us should
have volunteered to be caretaker of the handle.  This is not
Grex staffer responsibility.  

Let us pray to our various Dieties (or non-Dieties) that this doesn't
become an issue again.  IF it does, I put forth that those who loved 
the deceased gather after the healing and decide on a caretaker.  This
discussion and situation is not fair to Barbra, it isn't fair to Debra,
and frankly it isn't fair to th emajority of Grexers who were oblivious
or only marginally aware of Barbra.  Grex is, ideally, a community,
but it isn't the responsibility of the mayor to make sure that friends
of subgroups are remembered.

I'm now in shock on another level.  I've been called a conservative
republican fanatic.  I *do* feel that obscene handles should be reserved.
It would be impossible, of course, due to all the permutations (reserve
fuck and as protest you'd see phuck, fuq, fuker, fock, and so on).  Ah
well.  *shrug*  That's not protecting people's feelings, that's avoiding
unnecessary conflict.  I'm still trying to figure out the relevance of
all this to atheist pseudoscientists (just teasing, Rane) and other 
opinionated folks.  ... ah well, the importance of names and labels as
identity and not just as emotional icing involves a philosophical 
dissertation I'm unwilling to detail here, so I'll let it go for now.

response 87 of 326:

Oct 5 07:01 UTC 1995

I have no idea what dirty words exist in singapore, but I certainly
wouldn't care to be responsible for "reserving" them lest they offend
somebody.  Same for french, spanish, german, italian, russian, and let's
not forget the fetish the british have about blood.

So far as zipp goes, while it's kind of hard to say for *sure* what the
dead would have wanted to see, my sense is that she wasn't *that*
attached to her login-ID, and regarded it as much more of a fluid
dynamic association than a static binding for all time and space.  I
remember her as being far more into love than possesiveness, and so my
guess is she'd be the last person to wish to exclude Debra from using
mlady, zipp, or any other name, if she so wishes.

response 89 of 326:

Oct 5 08:50 UTC 1995

        Right- popcorn said above that it was easy to do.
Also- couldn't you just add mlady to the immortals list, if she
gets a new account?

response 91 of 326:

Oct 5 12:28 UTC 1995

i dont think the problem is with the login. i think
the problem happens to be the PEOPLE and they way THEY treat the login.

response 93 of 326:

Oct 5 14:51 UTC 1995

my point. things would be fine if those busy-bodies hadnt begun
to harrass her and make her feel attacked or guilty or
however she happens to be feeling.

and, for the record, i think it is 'weird' to love a person you havent met.
i did fall in love and marry another user, but that was because
of the off-line and in-person relationship that we had.

response 95 of 326:

Oct 5 17:52 UTC 1995

Wow. And you weren't even included in my "login-fetish busy-body"
witticism. (Also, I did not take umbrage at your pseudoscience crack
either - I just issued a correction.)

Helpers on Grex are not busybodies - those that tell people they've
committed some big sin, when they haven't, are busybodies. I'm a helper,
and in fact I was the first contact Debra had...if she wants to, which I
doubt, she can tell you the difference between a helper and a busybody. 

response 97 of 326:

Oct 5 19:51 UTC 1995

  If Debra posts, it has her name on it, not Barbara's, if she sends
mail on it, it has her name.  The only place where it could cause 
confusion is in Party and who knows if she even uses party.  "Mlady"
was just a handle, it was not Barbara's identity, and had nothing to
do with who she really was.

I hereby request to staff that if I die, my login be reaped immediately
and not after three months so that any other fans of Jack Kerouac may
have use of it.  I also have signed an organ donor card.  My eyes are of
no more use to me after I'm dead than my login is.  Let someone else get
some use out of them.  

The friends of Barbara have the memories of her...the "mlady" login is
just a word.  I think she'd regard this whole argument as being silly.

response 99 of 326:

Oct 5 23:16 UTC 1995

  My concern is that, based on  what I have read,  staff has already 
decided to overlook the stated objections and accept requests to 
reserve the logins of deceased users.  It seems to me as if the
responses have been more or less evenly divided, and that as such
staff is acting inappropriately if they have already decided to enact
or accept such a policy.  At least wait until a meeting and put this to
a vote.