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Grex > Coop6 > #19: Grex's listing in Michigan Computer User |  |
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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 206 responses total. |
sidhe
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response 75 of 206:
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Feb 2 21:35 UTC 1995 |
I was referring especially to your response to #39.
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lilmo
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response 76 of 206:
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Feb 4 17:46 UTC 1995 |
But look at the date on it! That was two weeks before YOUR response. Anyways,
I'm willing to drop it if you are. At the time, I just felt so strongly
about it, I felt the need to make the post despite the age of the last
responses before mine.
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carson
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response 77 of 206:
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Feb 6 21:45 UTC 1995 |
now, now, SYMPATHIZE with each other!
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ajax
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response 78 of 206:
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Feb 6 22:12 UTC 1995 |
Hey, drift! Somebody censor that!
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lilmo
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response 79 of 206:
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Feb 6 23:14 UTC 1995 |
*chuckle*
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sidhe
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response 80 of 206:
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Feb 7 18:49 UTC 1995 |
This is NOT symapthy! ajax, drift is fine.
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ajax
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response 81 of 206:
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Feb 7 20:35 UTC 1995 |
Well, to undrift anyway.... Most (but not all) respondents objected to an
MCU listing only if it involved compromising Grex's policies in any way.
So, while there are better letter writers than me, I thought I'd put propose
a letter to MCU for discussion. It explains what Grex is about. If MCU
decides we're "clean" enough, we get listed, if not, we don't.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Editor,
This letter addresses your request for BBS's listed in your publication to
state that they are not "adult-oriented" (in the X-rated sense of "adult").
Grex is sizeable (often 50 simultaneous users), not-for-profit system. It
is oriented toward communications, not file downloads. It is analogous to
Compuserve, except that we have no upload/download areas (though users can
transfer personal files). Grex has "conferences" (discussion areas) on
dozens of topics, such as current events and various hobbies. One conference
is about sexuality, but like CompuServe's sexuality forum, it is oriented
toward intellectual, not erotic, discussion.
Also like Compuserve, Grex provides Internet access, and cannot control what
happens there. We don't carry the X-rated "alt.binary" image newsgroups, the
the Internet's main x-rated picture source, because of legal risks.
While we think Grex meets the intent of your policy, we cannot guarantee
our policies or content in the future. Discussion is fairly censor-free,
and policies can be changed by the member-elected board of directors.
If this is adequate for your purposes, we'd appreciate being listed in your
publication, as it is a good source for new SE Michigan users.
Thanks for your consideration,
Grex Board of Directors
<board names & signatures>
Listing
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Grex, (313) 761-3000, 2400 E/7/1, or telnet cyberspace.com on the internet.
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steve
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response 82 of 206:
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Feb 7 20:41 UTC 1995 |
That sounds good to me. If they won't take it, stuff 'em. If that
meets their criteria, great.
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chip
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response 83 of 206:
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Feb 8 01:31 UTC 1995 |
The letter looks good to me too. Be sure to change the cyberspace.com
to cyberspace.org before its sent.
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ajax
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response 84 of 206:
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Feb 8 02:42 UTC 1995 |
Hey, a new catalyst to fuel the debate! I just got a new edition: MCU now
*charges* for BBS listings, $35/year. At first I thought "yeah right," but
upon reflection, if we get a single on-going member from the ad, it more
than pays for itself. And it's already proven as a source of local users.
They list their porn policy now too: "...not allow listing any BBS that
exist [sic] primarily for X-rated communication or interest that most people
would consider deviant behavior. Any BBS that has an 'adult' category will
not be listed." Which isn't much clearer than before.
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nephi
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response 85 of 206:
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Feb 8 03:02 UTC 1995 |
I still say 'go for it'. If the mission of Grex is community service, it
helps the community to know of this organization. $35/year is not that
much to help get users to this education source.
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sidhe
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response 86 of 206:
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Feb 8 03:48 UTC 1995 |
Primarily for X-rated communication..? Well, that's not our goal
in life, so, why not?
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steve
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response 87 of 206:
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Feb 8 04:27 UTC 1995 |
Ow--What in tarnation is an 'adult' section? Is the 'sex' conference adult?
Once news is running, is 'alt.sex.bondage.stories' to be considered
'adult'?
Are the people who use Grex for sexually oriented mail (I don't know
who does, but I'd bet anything there a few here) voilating the standards
of 'deviant' behavior?
Just what the hell *is* deviant behavior?
This has completely turned me off. It sounds like a "Contract with
America" compatible listing of BBS's in the area. Pre screened to insure
that no "dirty" things abound. Forget it folks, this isn't worth $0.35,
let along $35. Ick.
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mdw
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response 88 of 206:
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Feb 8 05:39 UTC 1995 |
Most people would consider computer conferencing 'deviant behavior'.
I, for one, would not care to see Grex support such a publication, even
symbolically -- I'm not real keen on even sending an entry in; I'm
definitely opposed to sending them mail.
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rcurl
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response 89 of 206:
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Feb 8 06:34 UTC 1995 |
We don't seem to need to beat the bushes for users. MCU policy appears
to be oriented toward profit-making BBS. There are still many
opportunities for further publicity, if we want more, before we start
buying it.
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ajax
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response 90 of 206:
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Feb 8 08:10 UTC 1995 |
There are other avenues we should pursue too, but this is relatively cheap
and easy; maybe an hour of a volunteer's time, plus $35. Publication is
twelve months of 55,000 issues: more than a million copies. And while we
have a lot of new users, from a rogue-ian perspective, this still makes
"business" sense, if Grex wants to attract new financial supporters. The
ads would probably yield a few hundred dollars in donations.
STeve's point about the ambiguity of "adult" can be addressed with a letter
like the one I posted, leaving the ball in MCU's court. Unfortunately, the
"political" objections can't be addressed...if many people feel that Grex
just shouldn't support this publisher, then that's that.
Anyway, out of curiosity, I tallied up some marketing stats on Grex's current
members, based on fingering the users listed as members in /etc/groups as of
today. Geographical distribution is similar to other figures I've heard.
Of 93 Grex members:
49 are from Michigan
35 don't list their addresses or .plans
8 are from other states
1 is from another country
Of the 49 Michiganders:
33 are explicitly from ann arbor or ypsilanti
11 are not within local calling range
4 seem likely within local calling range
1 is unknown (belleville)
Of 93 members, they found out about Grex from:
50 don't list sources or .plans
39 from other sources
2 maybe from MCU ("corporate subscription" & "newspaper listing of bbs")
(their corporate subscriptions are free, & they use a newspaper format)
1 from MCU ("friend/Michigan Computer User")
1 from the Ann Arbor Observer ("The Ann Arbor Observer")
Assuming unknown entries follow the same distribution of known entries,
and using my arbitrary assumptions about "likelies" and "maybes,"
84% of our members are from Michigan.
76% of Michigan members can dial the modems toll-free.
Probably around 4 members found out about Grex directly from MCU.
Probably around 2 members found out about Grex directly from the Observer.
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cicero
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response 91 of 206:
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Feb 8 08:12 UTC 1995 |
In #87 Steve wrote:
> Is the 'sex' conference adult?
>
> Once news is running, is 'alt.sex.bondage.stories' to be considered
> 'adult'?
No, and no, because we don't restrict them to "adults" =:)
However, I fear that the "Gay Pickup" item may be considered deviant! :D
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popcorn
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response 92 of 206:
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Feb 8 13:17 UTC 1995 |
This response has been erased.
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steve
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response 93 of 206:
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Feb 8 13:46 UTC 1995 |
Yeah, well, you know how it is with titles, Valerie. They tell all.
I agree that we need more local advertising. But having to pass the
scrutiny of MCU's anti-sex filter turns me off completely to using them.
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carson
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response 94 of 206:
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Feb 8 14:19 UTC 1995 |
re #81: when was the last time you were in the sexuality conference?
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rcurl
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response 95 of 206:
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Feb 8 16:18 UTC 1995 |
Party is not entirely prim.
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lilmo
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response 96 of 206:
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Feb 8 23:26 UTC 1995 |
Re #93: We don't "have to pass" the scrutint of MCU... We would presetn
ourselves as we are, and tell them to list us or return the check. Simple
enough, I think. And go easy on the guy; if I owned a newspaper, I wouldn't
want to list X-rated bbs's either. He's tried to come up with a hard-and-fast
rule to cover all situations, to be fair, but it's not that easy.
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mdw
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response 97 of 206:
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Feb 9 00:34 UTC 1995 |
It's almost certain that the MCU editor doesn't have time to personally
check out and "vet" each system on his list for standards. His policy
makes that pretty obvious. He is undoubtedly instead relying on a
combination of systems checking themselves, and relying on complaints
from readers of his list.
Ajax is looking at only members of this system, not users; hence; it's
not surprising his list is heavily slated towards A^2. He claims this
list represents the user population, but I know it doesn't; when I
looked through the newuser logs some time back, about 20% were from
other countries - compared with 1-2% in the member list. In talking
with other people on this system, I have found very few people who
actually have any real idea how this system is founded. That means even
if MCU did bring in lots more users, there's no reason to suppose any of
them will become members. If the goal is to bring in more members, we
might do better by concentrating our market efforts on current users
first.
Another factor to consider is: what kind of user are we going to get
from MCU? I submit we want to get intelligent open-minded tolerant
people who are interested in meeting lots of different interesting
people. Because MCU doesn't talk much about "free speech" or
"tolerance", but *does* make a big point about "no X-rated or deviant
minds"; I think MCU is likely to bring in a lot of people who are not
particularly open minded, and some fraction who are likely to be quite
offended by some of the things they might find on this system. I don't
think we'll be doing those people a favour by attracting them to grex.
I also don't believe we'll actually be enriched by attracting
intolerance.
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ajax
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response 98 of 206:
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Feb 9 03:05 UTC 1995 |
Whoa! I never claimed that represented the user population - I know it
doesn't too! The source for the numbers are explained quite clearly.
Combined with your assertions, the numbers would indicate that users from
Michigan are more likely to become members than users from elsewhere, no?
That was my unstated point. Also, I think current MCU-referred members
*do* suggest a listing would attract new members.
Re: MCU's policy, most bookstores in A^2 have similar policies; they carry
Time, but not Lovepump Illustrated. Same with most pharmacies and grocery
stores. Most major computer rags also have special rules about adult bbs
ads (e.g., Ziff-Davis magazines). We all have our limits on buying stuff
from places with policies we don't like. I'd like to hear more people's
opinions about this one.
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steve
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response 99 of 206:
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Feb 9 03:54 UTC 1995 |
I think what bothers me the most is having to pay $35 and see if
they will accept us. Since they can't personally check out every
system that comes their way, I think they'll be trusting of the data
if and only if it really looks clean. Perhaps I'm being overimaginative
here.
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