response 70 of 157:

Feb 7 00:59 UTC 2004

(And mary is right, too. :)

response 72 of 157:

Feb 7 01:07 UTC 2004

Re #69: Did it occur to you (and this question also goes out to those who
agree with you) that all this is ultimately going to do is result in more
of the very posting/copying that was originally claimed to be the big fear
of valerie and jep?

I've got news for the "censors": This issue has been debated for thousands
of years by minds far greater than ours. The one solution that has stood
the test of time in terms of the evolution of the race is free and
uncensored speech, with everyone responsible for their own words. You are
on the wrong side of history. 

response 74 of 157:

Feb 7 01:09 UTC 2004

<s'all right. You snuck in just the right spot to say much of what I was
saying>

response 76 of 157:

Feb 7 01:12 UTC 2004

Very well put tod. I certainly *thought* I was part of the community when I
was posting to jep's item. But here on the animal farm, some members of the
community are more equal than others.

response 78 of 157:

Feb 7 01:17 UTC 2004

In #69 you say "So what if my advice is gone tomorrow?  I'm not writing
for generations to come.  I'm writing today, for the use of a particular
person who is in a particular situation.  If I want to ensure that my
profound thinking is available in perpetuity, Grex items are a pretty weak
way to do it.

You are making yet another value judgment to justify censorship. 
Reasonable minds can disagree as who they are writing for and for how
long. You may think grex is a weak way to perpetuate "profound thinking" 
but some of us who were writing about the problems of a grexer and for a
grexer (as well as for other users of grex) obviously believe grex is one
of the *MOST* appropriate place for our words to reside. 

response 80 of 157:

Feb 7 01:30 UTC 2004

I have lots of doubt about that, tod.

response 82 of 157:

Feb 7 01:43 UTC 2004

It's time to shut up, jp2.  

Really and truly.

response 84 of 157:

Feb 7 01:48 UTC 2004

I *know* the motions are not about the words of jep and valerie; they are
about the words of others added to the items created by jep and valerie.
I've been very clear that I think item authors have the right, and should
have the capability, to remove the items they create, in toto, explicitly
including words others have written.

However, I've also been convinced such was not the situation on grex at
the time valerie deleted the items.  I've also been convinced to entertain
the notion that such should never be the situation on grex.

This discussion will inform future decisions people make, about their
votes, about the text they enter here, and about where grex goes from here.

response 86 of 157:

Feb 7 02:46 UTC 2004

I think it would also be considerate of jep's ex-wife to delete all mention
of her from grex.  Both of them acted rather immaturely and they probably
don't want the details immortalized.  

response 88 of 157:

Feb 7 03:05 UTC 2004

Ignore her, she doesn't read people's responses.

response 90 of 157:

Feb 7 03:32 UTC 2004

I think that this comes down to several different interpretations of what Grex
is to its users and the assumptions that they were using the system under.
I certainly -- before this discussion -- never realized that people actually
read old items, and I never thought of discussions being archived for the
ages. To me, agora/various cfs in various incarnations were current
discussions, which were fun and informative while on-going, but I'd never go
back and re-read it once the current discussion was done. I thought of it as
a conversation more than publishing -- fleeting and impermanent. Obviously,
this informs how I see the current vote -- I don't feel as if it's such a big
deal because (at least in jep's case, and in valerie's old diaries) the items
were closed long ago (a few years, right?) and the discussion was over. I
think that this is not the way everyone sees it, but some of us do (I'm
agreeing with keesan, at least. Amazing!).  Also, since to me it's a
conversation more than "writing", I don't feel this attachment to my words.
I wrote them, yes,  but they aren't something I have my ego attached to, in
the same way that I do things that I write for publication or that I write
with the intent of having people read them (as in essays, etc.) I write my
postings in the best way I can, and I try to make them clear and legible, but
they aren't agonized over and polished and "written" in the same way that I
write for publication. 

I do realize that other people have other viewpoints, but you must realize
that my viewpoint is as valid as yours -- my Grex is also a valid Grex. I
think that people are getting into "one true wayism" here, and it's got to
stop if we're going to build a Grex that everyone will still be comfortable
with. 

I know that I will never post anything beyond the most trivial and most fluffy
details of my life on this system again. I won't share who I am, or what I
would like to have help with, or details of my past that might shine light
on another's problems, since I don't like being made fun of, as I was in the
"agora" parody cf. on M-net. I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. I don't
think it was funny and I really resent the fallout from it (Valerie's reaction
and Jep's sudden desire to have his divorce items removed among other things).
I resent the fact that some people are apparently so lacking in empathy that
they can say "it's only pixels. it's only the internet" when people do very
clearly do find these pixels to be communication and ways to reach out to
other people. I resent some people insisting that obviously everything needs
to stay online forever because otherwise there will be no free speech. I feel
as if I can't share anything terribly personal anymore, because there's no
community here. And that's very sad. 

response 92 of 157:

Feb 7 04:10 UTC 2004

It's really not that hard to do, cyklone.  You meet lots of the people whose
responses you have read, and just forget that others are reading, too.

People are strange.

response 94 of 157:

Feb 7 04:57 UTC 2004

LET ME TRY!

Once upon a time there were two tribes. The mnet tribe was a bunch of
foul-mouthed party animals who enjoyed hot cars, hot women, hip hop, punk rock
and other loud pleasures.

The grex tribe was formed when some of the more introverted mnetters, who
much prefered bicycles, gardening, folk music, classical music and other
quieter pastimes, set out to create a life of their own. 

Because of family connections, and the periodic reunions forced by
equipment failure, the tribes had fairly regular interactions. 

Some of the mnet tribe would make humorous comments about the grexers.
Some of the grex tribe would make snide comments about the mnetters.

THE END