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Grex > Femme > #150: Review and Discussion of the book "Fat, Broke & Lonely No More!" | |
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| 25 new of 44 responses total. |
slynne
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response 7 of 44:
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Jul 22 10:29 UTC 2007 |
I am really going to have to get this book...
I have to admit that I think it is interesting that the author of this
book is addressing all of these things together in one book. At first,
I thought it was odd but when I stopped to think about it, it all
makes a kind of sense because those things are all connected in a way.
I mean, I am fat. And like it or not, being fat makes it MUCH harder
to find a mate. Being single increases loneliness. But it also has
financial implications since single women tend to be poorer than
married women. In my own case, I have a household income that is just
slightly below the mean household income in the USA. But if I were
married to someone with the same income, the two of us would have an
income in the top 20% of household incomes. That is a difference
between having a middle class income and an upper middle class income.
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cyklone
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response 8 of 44:
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Jul 22 13:41 UTC 2007 |
I'm waiting for the book about men called "Fat, Broke and Drunk No More."
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cmcgee
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response 9 of 44:
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Jul 22 14:24 UTC 2007 |
When I was single, I had a rule that, if I spent one weekend by myself,
I would spend some time the next weekend interacting with other people.
Either a party, or volunteering, or something where I had to converse
and be involved.
That rule was made up because I prefer to spend my time alone. I know,
however, that social connections require regular maintenance, so I force
myself to do things to maintain them.
I live alone now and have boundaries on how involved other people can be
in my life. I find myself in the situation where I want less
interaction than the other person.
For me, alone has meant solitary, not lonely.
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cmcgee
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response 10 of 44:
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Jul 22 14:30 UTC 2007 |
Fat, hrmmmm. For me, fat has been less of a cultural burden. *I'm* fat
when I have to buy new clothes because the current ones don't fit, not
because they are worn out.
My weight has peaked a few times. Once, I worked at bringing my eating
back in line. A couple times it has dropped unconsciously when the
stress ended.
Mostly I worry about what I eat, not what I weigh. That said, I have to
work hard at conscious eating. When I eat unconsciously, I often have a
very unbalanced diet, and eat more than I need. The consequence of
these eating patterns is that I weigh more than I would like to.
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cmcgee
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response 11 of 44:
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Jul 22 14:35 UTC 2007 |
Broke. Easy. I'm always broke, no matter how much I make. On the
other hand, my "broke" is different from many people's broke.
Once in grad school, I went to my advisor to ask for help in finding a
fellowship because I was "broke". He was inquiring about how soon I
needed the income. I told him that I was good for the next 3-4 months,
but then I'd be in trouble. His response was something along the lines
that most people didn't approach him until they were actually out of
money.
I've faced uncertain income since I left Ford in the 1980s to start my
own business. I learned that you hadn't "earned" anything until the
check cleared the bank. So my sense of being broke has something to do
with how full the accounts receivable pipeline is in my own life.
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slynne
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response 12 of 44:
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Jul 22 16:35 UTC 2007 |
I have to admit that I really like my alone time too. It is very easy
for me to spend a whole weekend at home where the only time I go out
is to take the dog for a walk. Sometimes on such weekends, I walk the
dog either very early in the morning or very late at night in order to
reduce the chances of running into people.
I think that making a rule not to do that two weekends in a row is a
good one.
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i
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response 13 of 44:
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Jul 22 17:40 UTC 2007 |
Re: #8
Fat, broke & lonely are all big social status downers for women, who
(as a generality) are far more concerned with soft-power social
status than men. Low-self-esteem men are more interested in getting
drunk than in reading a self-help book anyway.
Historically, sexy, rich, and married have been the top-three signs
of a woman being a desirable slave to a man's wishes. Staying so
focused on those in 2007 America, where "succeed on your own" is
often a better plan than "marry well", is not reasonable...but it's
hard to fight human nature.
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denise
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response 14 of 44:
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Jul 22 20:26 UTC 2007 |
I started reading the book this morning [but haven't gotten too far yet,
so I don't have too much to share as yet]. I have a difficult time
remembering the details of what I read, mainly remembering that I liked
or didn't like something, that it made sense or not, whatever. This is
frustrating when, later, I want to further process the info [since I
often don't do that as I read or participate in stuff]. So I started
underlining/highlighting stuff I want to remember or go back over again
later, and I'm writing notes/comments/questions in the margins. More
on those things later, I'm not at home right now to refer back to.
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denise
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response 15 of 44:
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Jul 22 20:38 UTC 2007 |
I, too, feel fat because I *am* fat. And usually this feels as a
negative thing, sometimes physically but a lot more of the time,
emotionally. This is probably because of the social stigma here in this
country about being overweight.
I haven't always been overweight but have been through most of my
adulthood. But even in my youth, during the times I exceeded what was
viewed as weighing too much, I was constantly being put down and
criticized by family members as well as others in my life. They very
well may have been concerned about my health but they definitely came
across as being embarrased by me as well. My parents especially were
frequently on my case about this [putting me on diets when I was in
grade school and wanting me to go on diets later in life; bribing me to
lose weight; trying to get me to exercise more, etc etc]. I usually
felt like I wasn't good enough for them since I didn't meet their
standards. And this continues now as well [them making snide comments
and such as well as often feeling that I'm not good enough].
So I need to work on self esteem issues as well as viewing being fat
doesn't mean I'm lazy, bad, or ugly [as Lynne commented above]. I
tend, for the most part, not view others that are overweight in a
negative way; however, sometimes I find myself comparing what I look
like to other women that are overweight instead of seeing each of us as
acceptable as we are...
And its interesting that overweight men aren't seen as negatively as
women are [not that they don't get harassed by it like we do].
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denise
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response 16 of 44:
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Jul 22 21:02 UTC 2007 |
Being broke: This is an ongoing thing for me. During my working years,
I sometimes had more of a disposable income then other times. But I
never learned how to budget my money, balance my checkbook, keep track
of income and outgo, etc. Again, am often harassed by family that this
is something that I'm not good at. I'm definitely am an impulsive
spender alot of the time, which, especially now that I'm not working,
isn't a good thing. A lot of the time, I avoid going to places where I
like to spend [bookstores, craft stores, eating out, that sort of
thing]. Or sometimes I just don't go out for long periods of time to
avoid the temptations [and to not have to spend as much $$ on gas and
save wear and tear on my car that is getting a bit up there in years and
mileage--and I'm not always able to afford the maintenance and
recommended work the car needs].
Off and on over the past 10 years or so, I've tried to get help with
learning how to budget [through credit-counseling sort of places, a
class at the church I used to go to, a past counselor taught me how to
balance my checkbook--finally having learned to do so in my early 40s,
and most recently, talking to someone at the Center for Independent
Living here in AA. One of my brothers had also offered to help me with
budgetting but since he lives a couple hours away, it wasn't really
followed up on.]
Even with the stuff I've learned, I still have problems keeping track of
everything, though sometimes I try harder than other times. Sometimes
I feel resentful when I can't have the things others have. And not
just the 'stuff' they have, but not having to worry about living from
paycheck to paycheck, not worrying about housing, food, paying
utilities and such--though I know people with higher incomes still worry
about these things. I also sometimes feel bad [and sometimes
resentful, especially when its other family members] that I can't have
the vacations/travel that others have.
Being on disability, I do live from paycheck to paycheck. In the recent
past, I've really been trying hard to cut expenses; sometimes I'm
successful on this path, other times not so much.
So yes, I do feel like I'm broke, though at the moment, I do have a roof
over my head and food in the refridgerator/pantry. But I often wonder
what's going to happen as time goes on and things happen. I've been
super-close to becoming homeless while I was still living in NC or not
having food to eat but at the last minute [more than once] was provided
monetary assistance from others. But this is something that I can't
count on, so I need to find a way to stick within my means.
Because of health issues, I'm really resisting the idea of perhaps
trying to go back to work part time; it's something I'm really afraid
to do because of my 'issues' I'm trying to deal with. But eventually,
I may have to go back to work [and am currently working with a
counselor at the Michigan Rehab Services that's provided to me through
SS Disability... So we're currently exploring my options and looking
at if I *can* work out a budget that would allow me not having to
work-and a plan that I'd be able to stick with. Time will tell how
this works out. In the meantime, I'm still in constant fear that I'm
not going to 'make it'. Such is the life I've lived over the past few
years...
[This is probably more detail than I should be posting on a public
forum...]
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denise
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response 17 of 44:
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Jul 22 21:18 UTC 2007 |
Lonely--yep, I sometimes feel this, too. I've never felt like I've had
many 'close' friends [or what we called 'best friends' when we were
growing up]. Though in the last few years in NC, I did develop a few
friends where I felt we had more than just a superficial relationship.
And since having to move back up to MI, I miss having that, though I do
still keep in fairly regular contact with one of these friends and once
in awhile with a couple others. I know it'll take time before feeling
these kind of relationships here in AA.
Though I've gotten better at appreciating my 'alone' time and often, I
really try and protect that. I've learned to be able to get out and do
stuff on my own and enjoy doing that. Though sometimes I really do
miss not having someone to call up to just chat with or to go and hang
out with. And it's seemingly harder to do with people who are married
or otherwise busy with their families. But at least online connections
[and grexpeditions and HHs cetainly do make it much easier! :-)
As far as being single or involved in a relationship with a SO, I've
definitely come to terms with being on my own. At this point, I don't
know how well I'd do with having to live with someone else [though in
my current living situation, I'm sharing a house with someone. But he's
gone most of the time, sometimes I only see him once a week or so, AND
he's involved in a relationship, so I don't have to worry about being
'hit on'. And though I have access to most of the house [just not 2 of
the 4 bedrooms and his bath], I have 2 bedrooms of my own where I spend
most of my time; one room as my bedroom, the other is set up as my
'living room'.]
I've come to this acceptance of my single life mainly because of my
failed marriage and multiple bad relationships after that [some of
which I was involved with mainly just to be IN a relationship.
Definitely not a good thing. I've learned to build up a wall around me
and I resist the relationships that could lead to something more serious
or intimate because of the pain and bad memories that they caused. I
somewhat do this, too, in meeting people that can potentially become
friends as well. Maybe from fear of rejection but also because of so
much of the time, I seemed to make more of an effort to get involved in
a friendship than the other potential friend did. So these things do
tend to stay more superficial. And I need to work on this...
Ok, enough 'confession' stuff for me right now!
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cmcgee
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response 18 of 44:
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Jul 23 22:01 UTC 2007 |
Interesting article here:
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/07/23/obesegirls.html
After tracking 11,000 American adolescents, a study released Monday
found that following secondary school, obese girls in the U.S. were half
as likely to enroll in college, versus their non-obese peers.
Written by Robert Crosnoe, from the University of Texas at Austin, the
study was published in the July issue of the journal, Sociology of
Education. It defines obese young people as those individuals at the
highest end of the body mass index (BMI), a ratio of weight to height.
It found that, "Obese girls were less likely to enter college after high
school than were their non-obese peers, especially when they attended
schools in which obesity was relatively uncommon."
------------------------
It also turned out that obese boys were no less likely to attend
college, no matter what their high school situation.
Whatever the messages are, they impact girls selectively, and probably
have a great deal of impact on being fat, broke, and lonely.
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denise
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response 19 of 44:
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Jul 23 22:39 UTC 2007 |
Hmm, that's pretty interesting. When I worked for the AA school system,
one of the jobs I had was working in/running Huron's Career Resource
Center... In the Career Center, not only did we have lots of cool
stuff about careers, we also had college reps from all over the country
come to talk with the juniors and seniors [the reps were often people
from their admissions dept.]. So I wonder if they, by chance, have any
statistics on applications [and acceptance rate] of males vs females
[they probably do]. Though there wouldn't be a way to track the
applicant's size to know how that would play a role in the selection
process. But I do wonder if the HS counselors, when working with each
student, encourage the various types of groups that the kids frequently
get put into [especially the groups that the peers put others into but
also, the groups the individual places him or herself into].
Groups/cliques based on appearance [good looks like your 'typical'
homecoming queen or jock vs overweight people, etc] and for groups like
the various activities one gets involved with and such...
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cmcgee
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response 20 of 44:
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Jul 23 22:56 UTC 2007 |
Women are over represented in college populations these days. According
to the National Center for Education Statistics, males make up only 44
percent of collegiate student bodies -- down from 58 percent 30 years
ago. So, lots more women than men go to college.
(Acceptance is the decision of the kid to go to a particular college.
Lots of kids are offered admission to multiple schools, but they can
only accept one.)
Are you suggesting that the reps themselves are comfortable with obese
boys, but uncomfortable with obese girls, and this influences their
recommendations? That doesn't sound likely if the admission rates are
what they are. Given that 66% of college students are women, you'd have
to have a pretty ferocious selection criterion that only allowed in the
slim ones.
I would guess that the obese girls, with all the self-esteem problems
that go along with being obese in high school, are self-selecting out of
college.
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denise
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response 21 of 44:
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Jul 23 22:57 UTC 2007 |
I started getting more into the book [Fat, Broke and Lonely] this
afternoon. In the introduction to the book, the author [Victoria
Moran] mentions some general things on this topic. like how 'fat' isn't
a mere synonym for 'overweight'. In this society, ''fat' is a somatic
epithet, a judgment, and a weapon... 'Broke' and 'lonely' are less
piercing but scarcely more appealing." She goes on to talk about,
though we are responsible for our actions, 'they' [various parts of
society] aren't making it very easy [to maintain an ideal weight, to
being financially stable, and to have all of the right kind of
relationships we desire.]
The book is divided into 5 parts [with about 10 chapters in each part,
and a specific action one can do pertaining the chapter's topic, to
help in that specific area. Of course, there are a number of things one
can do, but this is a start to get one thinking and moving in the right
direction.] Here are the topics of each section: --Part One: Breaking
Up with the Emptiness Inside --Part Two: Breaking Up with Fat --Part
Three: Breaking Up with Broke --Part Four: Breaking Up with Lonely
--Part Five: Hooking Up with the Life of Your Dreams There's also 8-9
pages of other books and articles at the end of the book.
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denise
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response 22 of 44:
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Jul 23 23:00 UTC 2007 |
OOps, Colleen slipped in. I guess I *have* heard that female college
students now outnumber the male students. Though in my response above,
I was just rambling, typing thougts; not sure what, if anything, I was
implying... Just a curiousity. :-)
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cmcgee
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response 23 of 44:
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Jul 23 23:04 UTC 2007 |
I was wondering myself. My particular bent is why women self select out
of engineering. Less than three years ago, I taught a 2nd year computer
science class with 30 students and ZERO of them were women.
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denise
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response 24 of 44:
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Jul 23 23:06 UTC 2007 |
This afternoon, I did read and highlight a few things that I'm going to
want to mull over a bit more... Though since there might be interest
in some of you getting the book, I'm not sure how much detail y'all
want me to go into at this time [and spoil what you'll find later]? I
can hold off for a little while but if there's enough interest, I can
highlight some of the issues as I go along.
On a side note, I also started another book this week--"The Artist's
Way" that came out about 10 years or so ago. It's about unblocking
one's creativity and thus, enjoy a more authentic journey through life.
It's written as a 12-Week course with homework assignments, which I've
already started on a little bit.
I think working through both of these books at the same time should be
pretty interesting.
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denise
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response 25 of 44:
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Jul 23 23:16 UTC 2007 |
Colleen slipped in again... :-)
Yeah, I wonder about those things, too. Like when my sister went
through HS [she graduated in '71], she didn't have a clue as to what
she wanted to do after HS. Back then, women weren't as encouraged to
go on to college like we are now. And she apparently liked and did
well in math, but women weren't encouraged to do anything in that area
[except maybe to go on to college to become a teacher]. So after she
graduated, she went through a number of different jobs, trying to find
*something* she wanted to do for the long term. She did various things
including waitressing, becoming a beautician, working as a key-punch
operator, that sort of stuff. She was the eldest of the 7 kids in my
family, so she didn't have any older role models [and neither of my
parents went on to college]. When one of my older brothers [who was 3rd
out of the 7 of us] went off to college and was doing well [in pre-med
at UM], my sister starting thinking that maybe she could go to college,
too. So she also went to UM, taking lots of different types of
classes, still trying to decide 'what she wanted to be when she grew
up'. In her junior or senior year [I forget which], she decided to take
the LSAT exam, did well on it, and went on to law school at UM.
Eventually, she ended up being able to use her interest in math and
numbers as she got a job down in Texas, working for the FDIC. And this
was the time where many of the oil companies down there were going
bankrupt; Chris had worked on the bank side of the things and apparently
did very well at it.
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cyklone
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response 26 of 44:
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Jul 24 11:53 UTC 2007 |
Since this is the fem cf, this talk about self-selection and
"encouragement" reminds me of what may be a notable difference between
feminism in the 60s and 70s and the "lite" version we see now, when many
women do not self-identify as feminists. While the earlier feminists
certainly did not hesitate to point out the social structures that led to
sex discrimination, there was also a HUGE consciousness-raising component
that attempted to "de-program" women from believing in society's roles for
them. I'm wondering if maybe that aspect has faded over the years. While
there are certainly still hidden barriers to entry into fields like
science and engineering, why do women seem so afraid to challenge those
barrier by finding the courage to "jump into the fire"? Rosa Parks didn't
wait for discrimination to end, she just grabbed her seat. Women should be
doing the same in those areas where they are still "discouraged."
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cmcgee
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response 27 of 44:
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Jul 24 13:15 UTC 2007 |
From my personal experience in 5 years of teaching at the engineering
school, even those who "jump in" reach a point where the hostility
overwhelms them.
In the early 2000s it was still ok for a full professor to make jokes in
front of 100 first-year students about not having "girls" on your
(mandatory) first year team because they would rather be shopping. To
consistently talk about "guys in engineering".
The engineering school did a survey of undergrad and grad students, and
tenured and untenured professors to try to find out why the numbers of
women were so low. The official final report had to use words like
"cold and hostile environment" because there was no way to put a nicer
face on it.
Rosa Parks was expecting an hour-long bus ride, not an immersive
environment. If the engineering school could be changed by one
Rosa-Parks type action, it would have become more attractive decades
ago.
What intrigues me about this is that other professions have made the
change. When I went to a technical university in the 60s, I saw nothing
wrong with being one of the 20% of women in the engineering classes. It
was true of engineering, medicine, law, and business at the time.
Somehow medicine, law, and business schools have managed to change their
culture and environment. Women attend and graduate from those schools
at near-parity with men. But the culture of engineering schools has not
changed.
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slynne
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response 28 of 44:
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Jul 24 23:24 UTC 2007 |
I wrote about this on my blog and the author of the book found me and
offered me a free copy :) I thought that was nice. I turned her down
though. I am going to try to find a copy in the free book room.
As for women not identifying themselves as feminists...I think there
are lots of reasons for that. Some of the reasons are that rocking the
boat can be pretty costly. I mean, I have heard even liberal
progressive men make jokes about how unattractive feminists are. I
really hear those kinds of statements from men I know who are more to
the right. If the message is that being a feminist makes one
unattractive, that is a pretty strong disincentive to identify as a
feminist. I think this is why I often hear women making statements
like, "I am not a feminist but, I think that women should be treated
equally to men and I think that things women value should be more
important in society."
I always want to say, "Well shit. What do you think makes a person a
feminist? Armpit hair?"
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cmcgee
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response 29 of 44:
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Jul 25 00:53 UTC 2007 |
*laugh* I remember a group of young Democrats calling each other just before
a fundraiser and deciding that we would wear dresses. It was radical.
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mary
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response 30 of 44:
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Jul 25 02:20 UTC 2007 |
There are some pretty shrill people out there who identify themselves as
feminists. There are a lot of feminist bloggers out there who are eating
each other alive. When they aren't whining about their own victimhood,
that is.
That may be why some women don't want to be labeled as such.
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denise
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response 31 of 44:
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Jul 25 19:14 UTC 2007 |
And this isn't just taking place in the feminine arena; it happens
elsewhere, too. This discussion reminds me of something that happened
to me just a few years ago [2003]. I was going through orientation for
a new job and we had some training on diversity [and how we all should
tolerate/get along with others that are different than otherselves in
some way or another]. Later that day, a group of us had to take a test
on a topic that had just been taught. Well, one of my areas of
difficulty is that I have ADD. After a short while when a lot of the
class was already done, the instructor asked if anyone else was still
working on the test and how much longer would it take to get done...
During the previous 5-10 minutes, there had been a lot of chatter going
on, including from the teacher. So anyway, I said that I was still
trying to work on the test but was slowed down because of all of the
chatter/noise that was going on. So he made a rather rude comment
about people with ADD. During the morning session on divirsity, we
were told that if we felt harassed by anyone that worked with this
company, or they said anything discriminatory, that we shouldn't let it
slide--to tell someone in the hierarchy of the business. So I did
mention this comment to that person that led that morning's training..
She apparently said something to the instructor [as she should have].
Down the road, I got a note from the instructor [who works in another
location] apologizing, that he meant it as 'just a joke'. Well, I
think statements like what he made that day was NOT a joke when it
makes fun of one with some kind of problem or issue. Like the jokes
people used to make about black people, those weren't really jokes at
all when they cause harm to the black race...
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