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Grex > Coop12 > #15: Grex's ID policy - email with account usgov |  |
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| 25 new of 133 responses total. |
robh
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response 7 of 133:
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Apr 13 21:08 UTC 2001 |
If they can't provide a contact, then f*** 'em.
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mary
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response 8 of 133:
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Apr 13 21:55 UTC 2001 |
You're response was nicely put, Mark.
I'd send this check back stating we hope they can find
a system which better suits their needs and allows the
type of personal anonymity they desire.
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mary
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response 9 of 133:
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Apr 13 21:55 UTC 2001 |
s/your/you're
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aruba
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response 10 of 133:
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Apr 13 22:01 UTC 2001 |
Unfortunately, we don't have an address to send the check back to, since
they never gave us one.
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aruba
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response 11 of 133:
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Apr 13 22:03 UTC 2001 |
(And thanks.)
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robh
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response 12 of 133:
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Apr 13 22:18 UTC 2001 |
A search on google.com for Property Exchanges & Sales Inc. in
Missouri turned up the following (amusing IMHO) URLs:
http://www.usps.com/judicial/1991deci/37-120.htm
http://www.usps.com/judicial/1992deci/39-14.htm
Obviously I don't have proof that these are the same folks, but it
does seem likely, again IMHO.
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cmcgee
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response 13 of 133:
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Apr 13 22:39 UTC 2001 |
re 10: I think one more email is necessary, asking them for an address to
return the check to. Then, put it in the treasury box, and hold on to it
until they request it.
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keesan
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response 14 of 133:
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Apr 13 23:50 UTC 2001 |
The check does not have an address on it? If so, they really do value
anonymity.
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gull
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response 15 of 133:
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Apr 14 00:41 UTC 2001 |
I'm surprised to learn it's illegal to make a photocopy of a driver's
license. Every car dealership I went to to test-drive a car made a
photocopy of mine.
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carson
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response 16 of 133:
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Apr 14 01:58 UTC 2001 |
(hmm. I've made photocopies of both my passport [expired] and driver's
license for the purpose of identification in the event either become
missing. strangely enough, I couldn't find a cite in Missouri law
[http://mosl.sos.state.mo.us/csr/csr.htm] nor in U.S. law for PESI's
claims, although the State Department will provide copies of passports
[http://travel.state.gov/passport_records.html] for a fee.)
(of course, it's a bit amusing that PESI refers to IBM, Turner
Broadcasting, and NBC as organizations that wish to protect "[t]he
privacy of corporate officers", seeing as all three [Turner being a
subsidiary of AOL-Time Warner] are publicly-held companies and
accountable to their shareholders. heck, AOL-Time Warner
[http://www.aoltimewarner.com/about/whos_who/] and NBC [http://nbci-
www2.xoom.com/corporate/NBCi_bkgd.html] both list their corporate
officers BY NAME on their websites. IBM doesn't, but they have a toll-
free number [(800)IBM-4YOU] to call for information.)
(I'm not surprised that PESI [apparently] declined to check Mark's
reference to why Grex asks for ID for memberships, otherwise PESI
wouldn't have so rudely accused Mark of making up his "own personal
policy." also, PESI would have seen that ID *other than driver's
licenses and passports* are acceptable. but that's neither here nor
there.)
(Mark, I'm impressed again with your ability [and preference] to handle
the matter privately. you've demonstrated poise, patience, and
professionalism, three things that are hard to come by. I'm glad we
[as Grex] managed to snag you for our purposes.) ;)
(I don't believe PESI's support is worth the headache, IMO.)
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carson
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response 17 of 133:
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Apr 14 02:08 UTC 2001 |
(FWIW, aside from a hiccup back in 1980, PESI has been recognized by
the Missouri Secretary of State as "Active and in Good Standing: filed
Annual Report," although there's no new report as of Apr. 29, 1999.)
http://168.166.2.55/missouribusinesses/charter.asp?cn=00201875
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swa
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response 18 of 133:
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Apr 14 02:30 UTC 2001 |
Re 16: "you've demonstrated poise, patience, and professionalism, three
things that are hard to come by. I'm glad we [as Grex] managed to snag
you for our purposes."
Hear, hear!
PESI seems to have some difficulty understanding what Grex is about, and
their insistence that we do things their way and their personal jibes at
Mark are just plain rude. I hope for their sake they conduct the rest of
their business transactions with a bit more courtesy and professionalism.
I've been asked to photocopy my driver's license and social security card
for every job I've applied for, and to photocopy my passport when studying
abroad with a school group. I'd be surprised to learn that it's really
against federal law to do so, although stranger things have happened...
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aruba
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response 19 of 133:
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Apr 14 03:22 UTC 2001 |
Thanks Carson and Sara, I appreciate the support.
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aruba
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response 20 of 133:
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Apr 14 03:38 UTC 2001 |
Re #14: The check *had* an address on it, but the address was carefully
typed over with the letter "s" before the check was mailed. There was no
return address on the envelope.
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robh
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response 21 of 133:
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Apr 14 03:42 UTC 2001 |
<robh notes that every job he's ever applied for has also asked for
a photocopy of his driver's license>
<and robh also commends aruba for his professional demeanor>
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jiffer
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response 22 of 133:
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Apr 14 03:48 UTC 2001 |
I commend you Mark. You did the best you can.
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eeyore
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response 23 of 133:
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Apr 14 04:30 UTC 2001 |
Absolutely. I think that at this point we mail them and tell them that these
laws are not laws that we can find anywhere, and that since nobody seems to
want to be responsible for this account, there is nothing that we can do.
Deffinately send the check back. And get the addy first, obviously. :)
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krj
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response 24 of 133:
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Apr 14 04:46 UTC 2001 |
I'm really skeptical that an "honest internet user" would have taken
the login "usgov," especially when hiding behind a wall of anonymity.
Wish them well and speed them on their way.
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rcurl
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response 25 of 133:
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Apr 14 05:58 UTC 2001 |
aurba asked me to read this item. carson, in #17, gives the URL for public
corporate information on PROPERTY EXCHANGE & SALES, INC. There is given
the name and address of the Resident Agent, who is the person (and
address) that is required to be registered with the state so that the
state can transmit legal communications. The corporation has been
"active and in good standing" since 1980, when they had failed to
file an annual report (not much of a sin...).
There is a Richard M. Jacobs, at 7730 Carondelet Avenue, Saint Louis,
MO 63105, (314) 721-2000, who may be the same RA. I suggest calling
him and ask what is the business of the company.
Personally, I see no reason why Grex should not accept this membership
if Richard Jacobs is at that address and phone number.
I will say I am surprised at the antagonistic tone of the person
with whom Mark has been communicating. This might be mentioned when
talking to Richard Jacobs. In fact, ask for the person's real
identify, and why they want an institutional account on Grex. Might
be interesting.
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rcurl
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response 26 of 133:
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Apr 14 06:38 UTC 2001 |
I should have mentioned that Richard M. Jacobs is an attorney, and that
is his business address. (The business address may be coming up in
the world, with an address change from 7720 to 7730... :)). Also,
just to make it more interesting, there is a Richard Jacobs in St. Louis,
who is a big real-estate wheeler-dealer. Might be the same person.
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remmers
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response 27 of 133:
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Apr 14 12:05 UTC 2001 |
Re #25: I don't see why Mark or anyone else associated with
Grex is obligated to go to any more time, trouble, and expense
concerning this matter than they already have. I agree with
the the general sentiment expressed in this item that Mark has
handled the matter diligently and professionally. The burden
is on the corporation representative at this point to make an
effort to conform to Grex's policies if they want the privileges
of Grex membership; the posted email exchange indicates that
they have no interest in doing so.
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russ
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response 28 of 133:
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Apr 14 12:21 UTC 2001 |
(Getting in a bit late, because I forgot to post this Friday night)
If Michigan state law doesn't allow photocopying of driver's licenses,
lots of car dealerships and real-estate agents are in gross violation
because they take photocopies if you go out with one of their vehicles
or agents.
The line about the Social Security number is a red herring, at best.
Only *government agencies* have any restriction on their use of the
SSN; they can only use it for purposes consistent with the Privacy Act,
IIRC. You're free not to give your SSN to any private company you
like... and they're free not to do business with you.
I didn't see anyone asking PE&S for an SSN (does Missouri put them on
the driver's license? If so, the legislature is full of idiots). An
Employer Identification Number would be analagous, and who the heck
would bother impersonating a business?
It sounds very much like PE&S wants to run software on Grex that uses
more than e-mail and Lynx. I suspect that they want to run spamming
software that hits open mail relays. We should not allow that.
On the other hand, we have a check. Mark, I suggest that you deposit
it and inform PE&S that they have themselves a tax deduction. If they
want access to telnet etc. they can meet our ID requirements, and if they
want their money back they can give you their mailing address. ;-)
I suggest that we change the policy on business/corporate users to
eliminate their access to telnet etc. and allow them to sponsor a
conference for the duration of their membership if they so desire.
Keep the voting restriction as-is. This way we have no need for ID.
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cmcgee
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response 29 of 133:
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Apr 14 15:41 UTC 2001 |
On thinking this over, I want to suggest that this corporation/person has
already shown that they are difficult to deal with, litigous, and certainly
unwilling to conform with the Grex community's explicit practices.
Rane has already spent far more time tracking down this person's
identification than we usually spend on any member. Why are we wasting
time on it?
One of the reasons we ask for ID is to be certain that we have a human
being to work with in case a userid proves to be a problem with the rest of
the internet. It does not sound to me as if this corporation or its
representatives would be easy to work with, thus taking up more staff time
than we already spend on Internet vandals.
I suggest we not deposit the check because this person could probably cost
us more in legal fees by filing frivilous lawsuits than we could possibly
afford. Cashing the check and then taunting him with the "donation"
concept is probably just what he needs.
Hold the check, ask for an address to return it to, and don't spend a
minute more trying to reason with him.
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remmers
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response 30 of 133:
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Apr 14 16:00 UTC 2001 |
Yes.
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rcurl
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response 31 of 133:
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Apr 14 17:08 UTC 2001 |
I think, on the contrary, that this has only gotten exaggerated because
more time has been spent on it than necessary. I agree that that was
caused by the behavior of the person that contacted Grex, who preferred to
argue than just refer us to their Resident Agent. The RA is fully
"identified" - by the State of Missouri, and if any problems arise, we can
complain to the Corporate Division of the State (who would contact the
Resident Agent). Of course, we can also just pull the plug at any time.
One reason for accepting the membership is, of course, $60. Also, I don't
think Grex should get so "personal" about the matter. I know Grex is just
a tiny club, but it can act in a business-like manner. Most businesses
have to deal with "difficult customers", and doing so graciously reflects
well on the organization.
My suggestion now, is to ask usgov to *confirm* that Richard Jacobs is the
corp's Registered Agent, and that the address and telephone number are
correct. Ask also for the corporations EIN. If he does that, the
organization is certainly sufficiently "identified".
(I am arguing, in part, for accepting this institutional membership
so we can "read the next chapter". 8^} )
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