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Grex > Agora46 > #77: Abortion clinics SHOULD be bombed | |
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| 25 new of 209 responses total. |
janc
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response 68 of 209:
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Jul 29 03:21 UTC 2003 |
Do you have trouble accepting the right to murder others under the right
circumstances?
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rcurl
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response 69 of 209:
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Jul 29 06:43 UTC 2003 |
I see it as an infringement of the right of a woman to control her own
body - and not have it controlled by the "state" - to not allow an abortion
after due consideration.
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novomit
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response 70 of 209:
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Jul 29 11:37 UTC 2003 |
Whenever someone is murdered, there will always be someone to rationalise it.
Abortion I don't think makes much of a difference there. Are you suggesting
that if we had had tighter controls on abortion in the early 20th century,
fewer blacks would have been lynched since we couldn't have rationalised the
practise so much?
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janc
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response 71 of 209:
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Jul 29 14:12 UTC 2003 |
My objection to the last paragraph of resp:67 is not that it is wrong, but
that it is vacuous. Everyone accepts the right to kill under some
circumstances. If someone starts shooting at a fellow customs agent, Bruce
is going to go for his gun without spending a lot of time worrying about his
right to kill, and nobody is going to criticize him much afterwards. But he
said "murder" not "kill". And the difference is ... um ... "murder" is
unjustified killing. If we accept his choice of word, then we agree with him.
If we don't then the statement is meaningless. All he is saying is "abortion
is murder because I feel it is." Can't argue with that, but don't expect it
to convince anyone either.
I asked Bruce how he would like to see a ban on abortion enforced. He didn't
answer. I have never yet seen any pro-life person address this question,
which I think is absolutely essential to consider. There just seems to be
this quiet assumption that when we illegalize abortion it will go away. But
that's absurd. When we illegalize abortion, it becomes the job of our law
enforcement officiers to make it go away. How would they do it?
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edina
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response 72 of 209:
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Jul 29 14:28 UTC 2003 |
I've never understood why instead of fighting for or against a woman's right
to choose, they both don't fight for full (and fool) proof contraception.
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oval
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response 73 of 209:
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Jul 29 16:02 UTC 2003 |
i love readin janc's responses. i usually always agree with him. but jan, 3
minutes of pleasure????
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janc
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response 74 of 209:
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Jul 29 16:48 UTC 2003 |
I think I read a study once that said that the average duration of a sexual
encounter for American couples was 3 minutes - just enough time to fit in
during a commercial break. I suppose the minimum is lower. I suppose I
should have left out the "of pleasure" part, which isn't that compatible
with the "3 minutes" part.
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rcurl
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response 75 of 209:
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Jul 29 17:09 UTC 2003 |
Re #72: I don't understand either why those that are anti-choice are also
often anti-contraception. This combination is even the policy of many
current governmental leaders.
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novomit
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response 76 of 209:
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Jul 29 18:29 UTC 2003 |
Because every sperm is sacred, and killing a sperm is the equivalent of
killing a human being. Likewise, I understand that this is the reason that
masturbation is sinful.
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edina
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response 77 of 209:
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Jul 29 18:46 UTC 2003 |
Every sperm is sacred??? Hahahahahahahahahahahah.
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tod
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response 78 of 209:
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Jul 29 18:49 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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mynxcat
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response 79 of 209:
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Jul 29 20:11 UTC 2003 |
"I'm one of those kooky types that
doesn't consider "life" to be official until "birth" ie. when a BIRTH
certificate says you were BORN. "
Someone needs to tell those tribes out in Africa, they're not alive!!
;)
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tod
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response 80 of 209:
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Jul 29 20:49 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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bru
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response 81 of 209:
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Jul 29 20:57 UTC 2003 |
and that means if someone aborts a baby during the 8th month by cutting it
out of the mother it isn't murder?
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tod
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response 82 of 209:
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Jul 29 20:59 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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keesan
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response 83 of 209:
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Jul 29 21:01 UTC 2003 |
During the 8th month, in the womb, it is not a baby but a fetus. How many
abortions are done during the 8th month?
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jmsaul
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response 84 of 209:
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Jul 29 22:58 UTC 2003 |
The only ones done that late in this country are those where the mother is
at extreme physical risk. Usually risk of imminent death.
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russ
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response 85 of 209:
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Jul 30 04:44 UTC 2003 |
I want to parse the subtext out of #77 paragraph 3:
> If you can rationalize the murder[a] of an unborn child[b],
> you will have no problem accepting the right to murder others
> under the right circumstances.
Taking point [a], I recall that murder is defined as "the unlawful
killing of a human being with malice aforethought". Bruce is asserting
that abortion is unlawful (false), that what is being killed is a
human being (debatable even in the third trimester), and that the
act is always malicious rather than possibly defensive (false).
Ergo, Bruce's conclusion depends entirely on two complete falsehoods
and one questionable assertion; in other words, he's WRONG. This is
all too typical of his reasoning abilities as exhibited here.
Point [b] illustrates this. Bruce probably cannot wrap his mind around
the possibility that a fetus might be not YET a child; he's shown no
ability to consider this in a rational manner before, and I doubt he will
in the future. He appears to take it as an article of faith.
Well, okay, Bruce, it's an article of faith with you. You're welcome
to it. Now, will you stop trying to force EVERYONE to practice YOUR
faith? Others differ on this, and they will have abortions if they
believe and feel it necessary. Can't you just mind your own business?
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rcurl
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response 86 of 209:
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Jul 30 05:24 UTC 2003 |
(Prediction: he will not be able to just mind his own business.)
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polygon
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response 87 of 209:
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Jul 31 03:31 UTC 2003 |
I strongly agree with Jan and Russ and others here, but I do admire Bruce
for sticking up for his point of view. It shouldn't be necessary to
insult him over this.
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bru
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response 88 of 209:
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Jul 31 03:50 UTC 2003 |
nope, I cannot. Anynore than I could stand by and watch a 12 year old raped
and murdered in a parking lot, or a 6 year old beaten to death by a group of
bullies.
Sperm is sperm, it has no righ to remain alive or procreate. An egg is an
egg, with no more rights to life than the sperm. A zygote is a zygote, but
tell me the day and hour it becomes a fetus and I will accept abortion prior
to that date.
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rcurl
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response 89 of 209:
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Jul 31 06:12 UTC 2003 |
I'm glad that you will accept abortion up to *some time* after conception.
This is exactly the issue the Supreme Court addressed in Roe vs Wade,
and they chose up to the end of the second trimester. So, if you would
prefer a different date, then argue it with the Supreme Court. What is
important is that you accept abortion under a woman's judgement for
a reasonable period of time.
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russ
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response 90 of 209:
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Jul 31 11:49 UTC 2003 |
Re #88: In other words, you refuse to distinguish between innocent
individuality (the right to be left alone) and infringement upon the
very body of another?
The distinction between embryo and fetus isn't a bright line that's
crossed in an instant; the transformation is a process, and the
criteria appear to be based largely on appearance. The thing that
actually makes a human being (the brain) takes a long time to catch
up. Are you saying that *outward appearance* of humanity is more
important than the fact? This is eerily similar to the primitive
superstition that putting a face on a doll gives it a soul.
IIRC, RU-486 acts during the zygote/embryo phase. If so, you should
have no objection to its use.
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tod
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response 91 of 209:
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Jul 31 16:19 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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bru
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response 92 of 209:
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Jul 31 17:22 UTC 2003 |
As I said, I do not believe in abortion because I do not believe you can state
the time and place when they become a human being.
zygote, embryo, fetus, baby, infant, child et al are just conventions we have
established to try and define when a human being reaches a certain stage.
But the age of the stage varies from person to person.
Some people are still children developmentally even after they have reached
the age of majority. some children are much more adult than some parents I
have known.
My wife, Twila, was born at a stage in the pregnancy when it would have been
legal to abort. Yet she survived adn I am thankful for it. I know some
people say that at cetain points, teh brain is not fully functional, but evn
some adults do not have fully functional brains, and to kill them would be
considered murder.
even if you have a person who is brain dead, adn you pull all life support,
sometimes the body will go on living. and if you were to kill one of these
people, it would be murder.
So, if we cannot define a set of criteria that we all can agree on to say
"this is life and it is sacred" How can we make the decision to end a life
because it is inconvenient for us?
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