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Grex > Agorage > #6: Member initative: Allow members to host images | |
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| 25 new of 183 responses total. |
cross
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response 67 of 183:
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Sep 15 20:32 UTC 2006 |
Then how come other public access Unix systems don't have the same problems?
This is what I'm trying to get at.... We're not unique in the world.
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steve
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response 68 of 183:
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Sep 15 20:49 UTC 2006 |
I honestly don't know. I know that a lot of people come here to
try and break things, and that a lot of people come here because of
the freedoms we offer. Quite possibly the massive number of Indian
users we had a one point changed people's perceptions of Grex, in
terms of what could be done on it.
No Grex isn't unique, but look at the number of dwindling systems
like us. M-Net got rid of email. Most or all of the FreeNet systems
are gone. Nether.net still around, I think. But how many other places
are there like Grex now?
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cross
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response 69 of 183:
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Sep 15 21:12 UTC 2006 |
I don't know. But places that offer hosting space (some even free) for images
and the like are a dime a dozen. M-Net got rid of email due to the spam
problem, which affects everyone pretty much the same way. Besides, the number
of public-access Unix systems was never particularly large (though in an
ever-expanding set of computers connected to the Internet, the percentage of
computers like grex relative to the whole continues to shrink).
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cross
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response 70 of 183:
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Sep 15 21:13 UTC 2006 |
(But that brings up another point - in a world where the potential pool of
users who *want* to use a system like grex is shrinking relative to the whole,
it makes sense to offer services that would attrack users to the system.
Hosting images is something that people have long asked for. Other systems
do it successfully; we won't know if we can or not until we try, measure, and
respond to those measurements.)
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mcnally
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response 71 of 183:
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Sep 15 22:57 UTC 2006 |
re #67:
> Then how come other public access Unix systems don't have the same
> problems?
There are two types of problems here.
One sort is immediate and practical -- how much space will users use and
how much bandwidth will be consumed if we make this change.
The other sort is not immediate, but represents what is probably a fairly
low level of risk (much less than 10%, though how low is hard to guess)
but a substantially bad outcome -- entanglement in civil or criminal
penalties, possibly substantial ones, if Grex is found to be serving the
"wrong" kind of content and someone decides to make an example of us.
I can even see potential risk to some people who have been supporters of
Grex -- I hope such a thing would never happen but what if polygon were
running for election against an opponent who was saying things like "my
opponent serves on the board of a computer system that's known for hosting
child pornography"?
I explained earlier that I think there is a substantial risk to Grex if it
allows images but attempts to control the content of the images. I think
there is also a risk to Grex if it allows images but tries to maintain a
content-neutral image policy. And I think when you ask "why is this not a
problem for other public-access Unix systems" I don't think it's safe to
assume that in fact it ISN'T a problem for those systems. It may just be
that it's a problem they've decided to ignore in the hopes it never becomes
an issue.
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steve
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response 72 of 183:
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Sep 16 00:55 UTC 2006 |
Actually Dan, I think that there are a lot of people who think using
Grex will offer them anonymity. I think a lot of people have come here
for that.
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cross
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response 73 of 183:
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Sep 16 01:30 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #71; It is a risk. The question is, is it large enough of a risk
to be worth worrying about? Other systems don't think so, and perhaps we
should wonder why that is.
Regarding #72; The same is certainly true of M-Net, and yet it doesn't appear
to have been an issue for them yet.
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steve
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response 74 of 183:
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Sep 16 04:33 UTC 2006 |
As I've said before, so what. M-Net isn't Grex.
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scholar
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response 75 of 183:
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Sep 16 08:52 UTC 2006 |
It's perfectly valid to compare M-Net to Grex, though.
They both provide basically the same services, and quite frankly, M-Net does
a better job of it.
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cross
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response 76 of 183:
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Sep 16 14:13 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #74; So there's nothing to gain by looking at mnet as an example,
considering that they've already done what is being proposed for grex? As
scholar says, it is perfectly valid to compare the two. Indeed, I think it
could be particularly constructive.
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cmcgee
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response 77 of 183:
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Sep 19 05:32 UTC 2006 |
Why is it important to host the images on Grex, as opposed to Flickr, or some
other image hosting site?
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spooked
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response 78 of 183:
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Sep 19 07:39 UTC 2006 |
Not sure...
I find it exceptionally puzzling that we still offer email, and don't
agree that it is worth the pain.
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cross
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response 79 of 183:
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Sep 19 12:17 UTC 2006 |
I'm not sure that anything that grex does is "important." But it's been
requested over and over through the years, and the traditional arguments are
starting to fall flat (because if nothing else, things like Flickr and
photobucket do exist). But, I also think grex is mired in resistance to
change; a lot of our justifications are, "we've never done it that way." Or,
"what's wrong with the way we do it now?" Then strawman arguments are put
up to justify current policy and, eventually, the debate just dies down
because no one is interested in arguing it over and over. But hey, mabye
that's why grex's membership levels have halved in the past few years.
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mary
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response 80 of 183:
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Sep 19 13:00 UTC 2006 |
I don't hear people objecting to this on the basis of "we've never done it
that way". Rather, they are presenting some pretty compelling reasons for
keeping our current policy. And I think it's unfair to say aruba, steve,
glenda, mcnally and others who have spoken up are simply resistant to
change. They have brought up some valid points here.
Aruba doesn't really want to see Grex hosting porn. sTeve wonders how we
will go about the censorship issues that will arise. mcnally points out
how allowing some images but not others might jeopardize our common
carrier status. And glenda brings up how other sites are already doing a
great job at hosting images and do we really want the added legal and
administrative burden involved. I'm highlighting just a few of those who
have brought thoughful questions to the discussion.
I haven't found any of the answers to these concerns compelling enough
to truck ahead, changing our policy. But the discussion has been
interesting.
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cross
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response 81 of 183:
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Sep 19 18:34 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #80; No one said those aren't valid points. But you know what?
There's this BIG counterpoint to each one: M-Net, an organization that does
largely the same thing as grex and is under many of the same constraints,
allows images and it hasn't been a problem for them. I think it's perfectly
valid, for each of the points raised, to ask why that hasn't been a problem
for M-Net. As for resistance to change, that you "haven't found any of the
answers to these concerns compelling enough to truck ahead, changing our
policy" is being pretty resistant to change.
Of course, each of the compelling concerns you raise could equally be applied
to, say, offering email. Why not remove email access, as well? How is that
substantially different? Substitute UCE for porn (well, really, they're
largely the same thing now days - that and pharmacuticals are what most of
the spam I get concerns).
That we don't allow images for the reasons cited, but do allow email is
inconsistent.
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tod
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response 82 of 183:
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Sep 19 20:29 UTC 2006 |
I don't think there would be a big overhead of censorship unless that is what
Grex is all about for certain staff people.
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other
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response 83 of 183:
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Sep 19 21:00 UTC 2006 |
Re# 81: There is one reason, and it is monumentally significant. M-Net
is run autocratically. If you come up against a sysadmin on an issue,
you might as well just leave, because unless you can convince the person
to even spend the time listening to/reading why you think they're wrong,
you have no chance of winning the argument.
The difference between that and the way Grex is run makes M-Net in no
way whatever a reasonable measure of what might happen on Grex. There
cannot possibly be a reasonable use of M-Net's example for any
predictive value on Grex.
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tod
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response 84 of 183:
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Sep 19 21:21 UTC 2006 |
re #83
So what you're saying is that Grex staff is a bunch of beauracratic bologna?
Wow, I agree for once.
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steve
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response 85 of 183:
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Sep 20 00:58 UTC 2006 |
Grex staff is anything but beaurcratic.
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steve
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response 86 of 183:
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Sep 20 01:08 UTC 2006 |
Dan, Mary is not resistent to change per se. She said that she has been
listening to the issues and doesn't see it as a reason to change. I think
thats perfectly valid. She is listening, but doesn't agree. Thats a lot
different from being resistend.
Again I will say that what M-Net does is what M-Net does. What they
choose to do is just about irrevelant to what we do. The cultures are
different, and thats that.
Your argument about removing email access if you substitute that for
porn doesn't make sene to me; the two are completely different.
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nharmon
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response 87 of 183:
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Sep 20 01:14 UTC 2006 |
Maybe we can handle this the same way we handled the idle daemon issue.
Allow images for a month or so and see what happens.
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cross
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response 88 of 183:
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Sep 20 02:02 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #83; What does the autocratic nature of M-Net system
administration have to do with the fact that both M-Net and Grex are 501(c)3
not-for-profit corporations, both have an open-access model for newusers,
and both face many of the same potential legal problems with respect to
images? In regards to the issues that have been raised in this discussion,
I don't see how you can so easily discount M-Net's experience in this
matter.
Regarding #85; Heh.
Regarding #86; I disagree. I think, at the core of it, that this was
proposed by polytarp and therefore immediately got on the bad side of nearly
everyone. I wonder how the discussion would have evolved had it been
proposed by someone else?
Yes, M-Net and grex are different. But with respect to the issues raised
regarding this proposal, there is much that grex can learn from M-Net. In
particular, M-Net did not become a haven for porn sites once it started to
allow images, it did not lose its nonprofit status, and it does not appear
that it has been the victim of legal action relating the images its users
put in their personal web space. Moreover, it is a convenience for its
users. Why wouldn't grex look at that? How does the response, "M-Net isn't
grex" invalidate their prior example with respect to things that are exactly
analogous between the systems? These aren't cultural issues, they're
organizational issues, and at that level, the two systems share much in
common.
And my argument wasn't that porn is analogous to email, but rather that
email and hosting images are (nearly) isomorphic, where porn maps to UCE.
That is, email access and image access have many of the same risks, and in
particular, nearly all that have been raised in this thread. (Of course,
grex did turn off outbound email for newusers as a result of this, but
there are hordes of users grandfathered in.) Saying, "I've read the
discussion, and conclude that the risks sufficiently outweigh the benefits
that I am not swayed in favor of the proposal" gives one pause for thought
when the same line of reasoning can be applied to email, as well.
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cyklone
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response 89 of 183:
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Sep 20 02:30 UTC 2006 |
Basing a technical argument on the "different cultures" of m-net and grex
is intellectually weak, at best, and dishonest at worst. If the arguments
were over cultural issues, the point would be relevant. When it's used to
rebut a perfectly technical argument that m-net can handle images and
grex's capacity is not that dissimilar, it has zero persuasive power.
Unless of course someone is suggesting more grexers would post porn here
than m-netters would there. Hmmmm. Twinkie's "Dirt Pig" stories are pretty
vile, but maybe there's an underlying fear that some grexer somewhere
could do worst . . . .
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steve
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response 90 of 183:
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Sep 20 02:58 UTC 2006 |
Hmmm. I thought this was a discussion about image files in general,
not just technical. Am I wrong here? Whats weak about it? I don't see
why, because M-net does something that we should or should not do whatever.
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steve
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response 91 of 183:
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Sep 20 03:03 UTC 2006 |
Had someone else have proposed this Dan, my thoughts would be the
same. And, actually this was a reasonable thing to put up for
discussion.
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