response 66 of 133:

Apr 17 14:02 UTC 2001

As far as comments from corporate members of Grex: we currently have 3
institutional members, all (I believe) Michigan nonprofits.  None of them
have ever posted responses in coop, to my knowledge.

We don't discriminate against corporations in terms of ID - they are
required to submit the same type of ID as individual members.  We do prevent
institutional members from voting in Grex elections.  That was to prevent
any one person from potentially having more than one vote.

About stolen ID: None of the ID information which Grex collects from members
is stored on the Internet.  It's on my computer and in Grex's file cabinet.
Of course that doesn't eliminate all the ways it could be lost, but most of
them.  I think it would be reasonable to implement an encryption scheme for
what's on my computer.

And PESI has not provided Grex with an address of any kind.

I'll see what I can do to help make it possible for usgov to participate
directly in this item and the next one.

response 68 of 133:

Apr 17 14:30 UTC 2001

Let's quit wasting time on this.  If the person wants to become a member,
he/she/it can comply with our policies.  If they don't want to comply, they
don't have to join.

Mark is doing far more than any treasurer needs to to help this person join.


I'm making a motion: 

I move that we reaffirm our current Grex policy on corporate memberships.

No amendments, no changes, nothing.  Leave it the way it is now.

response 72 of 133:

Apr 17 15:01 UTC 2001

And being a pagan, I'm far more offended by #70's use of the
word "pagan" than by our refusal to change our membership policy
for corporations.

(Just trying to keep it on-topic!)

response 74 of 133:

Apr 17 15:57 UTC 2001

Anyway.....

I think we ought to point out that we have never asked for a Social Security
number. 

At this point, I think that we shoud just get the addy, and send this moron
back the check.  He's fighting too hard to make sure that we don't get the
information, wheras anybody else would have provided it without a problem,
in a very short amount of time.  I don't see why we should go changing a bunch
of rules because somebody is is being a dick.  I'm firmly in support of
keeping Grex's Corporate membership exactly the way it is.  If there are so
many places that will let anybody onto the internet with no id, why are they
bothering with us?

An address and a contact person isn't quite enough to get thousands of dollars
worth of credit...there are a few other things necessary.  However, we didn't
even get an address and a contact person, since this person seems bound and
determined not to give it to us.  

They x'd out the addy on the check because they moved, and decided to save
a few dollars?  That's a bunch of bullshit.  Talk about being completely our
of the loop.  If they are going to scream about us being unprofessional, I
think that the check with no addy is a redflag.  I cannot think of a single
business that would have the gall to do that...and if I were a business that
was offered that check, I wouldn't take it.  I have issues taking checks like
that as a retailer.

It might be worth asking our other 2 or 3 corporate members if they think that
our policy is outdated, but I would rather think that the answer would be no,
or else they wouldn't be here.  The cry of "Grex individual members should
not be allowed to vote on this" is pretty much against everything that we
stand for.  If that is "20th Centuary", and so behind the times, oh well. 
I guess I'm happier being a couple of years behind, then.

If we are a secrety club like this guy says, then how did he find us?  Not
too much of a secret, eh?

And if all of this information is easy to find, then why haven't we found all
that much?  And, more to the point, why the hell should we have to go
searching for it at all?

Okay, so somebody is going to fix it so this looser can find this item easily.
He can't find the directons to make it BBS, and the Coop conf?  Why should
we have to link him directly to it?  Sorry, but I really believe that we have
spent too much time on this already.  Send the damn check back, and if he
wants to scream and whine and cry, let him.  I'm done with it.

And quite frankly, who gives a ratsass at this point what the login is?  I
agree that i don't like it, but I figure that at this point, thats the least
of our concerns.

response 76 of 133:

Apr 17 16:00 UTC 2001

(Meg's #74 slipped in.)

response 78 of 133:

Apr 17 17:28 UTC 2001

I also don't like the way this "usgov" has been arguing the issue, but
primarily because it is beside the point. If a corporation wishes an
institutional membership, there are perfectly straightforward ways of
proceeding, and they don't involve hiding names, addresses, or EINs. But
it is also unnecessary to argue with the person about what are personal
IDs, which are not relevant to corporations, which exist as "corporate"
persons.

I suggest that what should be asked of corporations are their legal names,
addresses, phone numbers, and the same for at least the *resident agent*
of the corporation. The latter must be filed with the state in any case. 

Grex also accepts as institutional members unincorporated clubs. In those
cases the requirement of positive ID for an individual representing the
club makes sense. 

eeyore suggests in #74 asking "our other 2 or 3 corporate members if they
think that our policy is outdated". If there are really only 2 or 3, they
must be me, as I have created 4 institutional memberships on Grex, each
having paid annual dues. They are _Michigan Interlakes Grotto_ (now moved
elsewhere), _Michigan Karst Conservancy_ (now moving elsewhere), _ARROW
Amateur Radio Club_, and _Michigan Natural Areas Council_. These have been
used for hosting websites and board e-mail communications. None of these,
by the way, use the internet except for e-mail and a website, which do not
require membership. Their memberships have been a way for them to say
"thanks" for providing this service for them.

So, what do I think of the ID requirement? There wasn't any. The
corporations were not asked for ID and nor was I. It was done on a
personal basis as I was known to Grex. However if Grex wanted to establish
an ID requirement for corporations, I would suggest making the requirement
a written request from an officer of the corporation, identifying the
corporation with at least its resident agent by name, address, phone
number, and corporate EIN. If Grex is really paranoid, these could be
checked with the corporate division of the State. 

response 80 of 133:

Apr 17 17:39 UTC 2001

Rane: we have clarified the ID requirements for institutional memberships
since the time when those institutions became members.  We require ID from
a contact person.  I put you down as the contact person for mkc and mnac. 
Those two and one other are our only 3 current institutional members.

response 84 of 133:

Apr 17 19:11 UTC 2001

So how *do* corporations provide proof of their identity?  Apparently 
there aren't many good ways of doing it, if some guy off the street can 
claim to be "Microsoft Corporation" and get VeriSign certificates 
issued.

response 86 of 133:

Apr 17 19:51 UTC 2001

On of you mentioned that you have not asked for a SS#; However you have asked
for a copy of a driver's license.  In this state, such licenses may ve well
have SS #'s on them.

As pointed out by David Brodbeck, even VeriSign got taken.  Even if you
receive a copy of a driver's license, you wouldn't know if it were genuine
or fake in any event.

Mark asked why "usgov" for what purpose.  The purpose would be for any
employee who wanted to know about computers, shell accounts, etc. to get some
experience.  Why did Mark choose "aruba."  What difference does it make what
login name one uses.  The name was available so we decided to take it. Period.

The law in Missouri is making a copy of a driver's license. That is illegal.
No, we don't pretend to "not udnerstand."  The law is clear.  Once again, how
could you even tell if a driver's license were fake or real as it sat on
Mark's hardrive and/or his file cabinet.  

One of your corporation members admitted not having to provide any I.D.
because he was known.  

The only reason we asked Mark to post our messages is that the script he
provided to us for posting simply didn't work.  He was kind enough to send
a revised script so that we could post ourselves.  Alas,those who work for
us are computer novices.

Once again, Grex is not in the verification business.  It is not in the
business of protecting the net from any and all possible and conceivable abuse
by anyone.  One could use the anology of using a steam roller to kill an aunt.
However, that is up to the Grex membership.  

Mark has been, or is being provided with an address. He can either return our
check or cash it if we become full fledged members.  As indicated, a contact
person is reasonable but nothing further from any individual when the
Corporation is the one that is the member, not the
individual.

response 88 of 133:

Apr 17 20:24 UTC 2001

(Re #86, I'm curious what kind of "script" was needed in order for
usgov to post.  A lot of people post here who are computer novices
and never got anything special from the management to help them do
so.)

response 90 of 133:

Apr 17 22:00 UTC 2001

(resp:89 is in response to resp:88.  I expurgated it because it's not
terribly relevant to the item.)