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Grex > Classicalmusic > #54: Music retail again: SKR Uptown (Classical) & Downtown to close |  |
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| 25 new of 194 responses total. |
brighn
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response 61 of 194:
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Jan 21 23:12 UTC 2001 |
#53> U-M is elite when put in the context of United States Universities not
within an hour's drive (or so) of an ocean. There's only a handful of schools
comparable to it in that context (U-Az, for instance). Definitely the most
prestigious university in Michigan, if nothing else.
(I should say that University is being used in the BIG SCHOOL sense...
Lawrence Tech and MTU, for instance, are much better for their technical
specialties than U-M is, and they're both technically "universities.")
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gull
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response 62 of 194:
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Jan 22 02:11 UTC 2001 |
I don't find it all that surprising. I don't even bother to go to local
chains for CDs I know are going to be rare, anymore, because it's easier
to buy them online than to talk the clerk into special ordering them. I
also find it difficult to find classical music in stores; I guess I just
don't understand how the albums are arranged. Online I can just keyword
search for what I want.
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brighn
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response 63 of 194:
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Jan 22 03:12 UTC 2001 |
Most stores that carry classical music shove it in the back somewhere. Just
FYI.
BTW, John may take heart in knowing that while A2 couldn't support a classical
music shop, "home" for most of those kids -- SE Oakland County, esp.
Birmingham/Royal Oak -- can. Harmony House Classical has been on Woodward for
as long as I can remember.
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md
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response 64 of 194:
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Jan 22 04:50 UTC 2001 |
My question was a teaser, but okay anyway, U-M might be elite "when put
in the context of United States Universities not within an hour's drive
(or so) of an ocean" (and is certainly so when compared to the Michael
Delizia School of Web Design). The fact remains that the taste in
music of the students and faculty won't support a classical music shop
in AA.
Why is this so "appalling"? Is it really a bad thing? And if so, why?
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oddie
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response 65 of 194:
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Jan 22 07:39 UTC 2001 |
re62: that's interesting about having to talk the clerks into special
ordering things. In at least one independent music store in Boulder (Bart's
CD Cellar) they always offer to special order anything not on the shelf. (I've
never tried this with classical CDs however...Bart's classical collection
consists of about 20 albums hidden in the back (quite literally), just as
brighn says.) But then Boulder has perhaps an unusually strong "support
local business" movement...
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brighn
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response 66 of 194:
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Jan 22 16:45 UTC 2001 |
Michael? You, tease? I'm shocked. My entire image of you has just been
shattered.
As I said before, I think the implication is that "well-educated" = "cultured"
and "cultured" = "classical music lover." I think that (a) we're trained to
believe those equations in our society (taking American society as a whole)
and (b) neither of those equations is objectively necessitated. So I tend to
agree with you that John's use of the word "appalling" -- as opposed to, say,
"disappointing" or "surprising" -- is heavy-handed and excessively culturally
biased.
But then, I'm a well-educated liberal arts major who finds U-M-styled culture
to be affected pseudointellectualism and likes a mere handful of classical
composers (Mozart, Stravinsky, a few others), and merely in passing, and
thinks there's a good reason why most folkies have trouble selling albums,
and it has nothing to do with superficial American tastes in music (it has
more to do with most folkies being "self-righteous, pretentious, and
politically correct, [with views] slilghtly to the left of Karl Marx and
Bertoldt Brecht" [Wally Pleasant]). [I mention folkies because they tend also
be in the equation "liberal and well-educated" = "cultured and folk music
lover".]
Not that I have a particular opinion on this (or any other) matter.
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tpryan
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response 67 of 194:
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Jan 22 18:11 UTC 2001 |
It seems that Borders downtown has a lot of acreage of space
for Classical Music for the amount of sales it creates. It must be
near 20% of the CD floor space.
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remmers
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response 68 of 194:
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Jan 22 23:05 UTC 2001 |
Man, my little comment sure touched off a tempest. Guess I struck a
nerve or two. Some folks sure are touchy.
To clarify: No, I don't think that "cultured" equates to "classical
music lover". How in the world did anyone infer that from what I said?
But consider this: The University of Michigan houses a large, major
music school. What's more, there are enough classical music lovers in
and around Ann Arbor to support several ongoing concert series that
bring in first-rank classical musicians from around the world. Ann Arbor
sports an excellent community symphony orchestra, a summer symphony
orchestra, a life-sciences symphony orchestra, an Academy of Early
Music, and various other groups devoted to classical music. And yet
Ann Arbor seems unable to support even a single decent classical music
store to service the obviously sizeable community of classical music
lovers. How sad. I'll stick by the "appalling".
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md
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response 69 of 194:
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Jan 22 23:53 UTC 2001 |
I bet mostly the same people goe to all of those concerts.
If you're concerned that there isn't enough variety in the selection of
CDs for sale in AA, or that the shops don't carry a decent selection of
your particular favorite kind of music, then the word might
be "annoying" or "an inconvenience." But "appalling" does seem to
imply something else.
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anderyn
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response 70 of 194:
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Jan 23 01:26 UTC 2001 |
I admit that I'm bummed because the Ann Arbor record stores don't carry
enough of my favourite music, but I also don't expect them to. Not
really. The problem is that classical music is supposed to have a
larger base of listeners than, say, Brit-folk music -- which is my
personal addiction. I really think that any largish community should be
able to support an interesting and wide-ranging music store, just as
any largish community should be able to have a really GOOD bookstore.
If I want to buy classical music, I should be able to do it reasonably
easily (not that I *have*, I blush to admit, it just doesn't do that
much for me...), just as I should be able to buy the classic books in
whatever field I'm interested in. That is how an ideal world would
work. That's how Ann Arbor used to be, at least, that's how Schoolkids
and Borders were... I don't knock the Best Buys and the Waldens, but
I'd like to have more choice than they allow.
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mcnally
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response 71 of 194:
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Jan 23 02:51 UTC 2001 |
The thing that makes this sad, in my opinion, is that classical music
is one of the very few niches left in the music retailing world in which
an independent store with a knowledgable and helpful staff *might* be able
to compete with a discount megastore or on-line retailer. If such a store
really can't survive in a town like Ann Arbor, then I see no hope at all
for the future of independent music retail and that means bad things for
the near-term future of music itself, because stores which aren't motivated
at least partially by love of the music itself couldn't care less what
they're selling, as long as it's selling.
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brighn
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response 72 of 194:
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Jan 23 03:34 UTC 2001 |
"appalling" does not mean "surprising in the context of the climate
described," John. I'm sure you own a dictionary. If you're appalled, it's
because you think the situation SHOULD be the way you expect it to be, on some
moral or ethical level.
As in: "I'm appalled that a university professor would pretend that a common
word of English means something other than what it does."
Just to use an irrelevant example.
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orinoco
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response 73 of 194:
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Jan 23 15:18 UTC 2001 |
Re#68, 69: Also, and maybe more to the point, I bet they play the same music
at most of those concerts. The Classical repertoire is so geared towards,
well, "classics" that once you've established your record collection, you
don't need to add to it very often, especially if you're just a casual fan.
The reason pop music can support such high record sales is, there are always
new bands forming, new songs being written, etc., and people feel compelled
to keep up. The new composers writing new Classical music these days don't
have nearly so much of a following; Beethoven isn't exactly writing any more
symphonies; and in the rare event that a new _recording_ of the Beethoven
symphonies comes out, only the most hardcore classical fans update their
collections.
Is it unfortunate that Classical fans in Ann Arbor aren't paying attention
to the composers of new music at the U of M? Uh...maybe...but the same thing
is happening across the country. It certainly isn't limited to Ann Arbor.
Beethoven's refusal to put out any new material, and the general apathy about
owning multiple recordings of a piece, also seem to be just as strong in Ann
Arbor as elsewhere (unless Beethoven's been doing some _really_ intensive
focus-group studies trying to perfect his new sound).
In and of itself, Ann Arbor isn't really guilty of anything except Not
Being As Big As NYC (or Chicago, or suburban Detroit, or whatever), and so
not having a critical mass of those rare fanatics who buy all the new
performances.
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tpryan
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response 74 of 194:
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Jan 23 17:11 UTC 2001 |
Beethoven is one of those decomposing composers.
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brighn
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response 75 of 194:
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Jan 23 17:50 UTC 2001 |
(btw, John, I don't think the conversation re: your comment qualifies as a
tempest... it's really just been me and MD tweaking each other. I must laud
everyone else for merrily ignoring us. =} )
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remmers
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response 76 of 194:
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Jan 23 20:15 UTC 2001 |
McNally's #71 explains quite well why I think the situation is appalling.
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brighn
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response 77 of 194:
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Jan 23 21:40 UTC 2001 |
Hm. I think a more telling instantiation of #71 is Borders, which once WAS
an independent store with a knowledgable and helpful staff (not so long ago),
and which rapidly became a discount megastore.
Of course, that ignores the point that most classical music was originally
funded by patrons who were as indifferent to aesthetics as the modern Britney
Spears fan.
And "as long as it's selling" relies on a common (and faulty) assumption that
popular music, almost by definition, is aesthetically worthless and the sort
of music sold by "music lovers", almost by definition, has great aesthetic
worth. This assumes an objective aesthetic, of which the masses are woefully
ignorant...
... which brings us back to my original statement, which is that John's
statements were rooted in social elitism.
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dbratman
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response 78 of 194:
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Jan 23 23:17 UTC 2001 |
I see nothing elitist about it. Not everybody in a university
community will like classical music, and some people even out in the
trackless suburbs have a taste for it, but there is an observed
tendency for such people to congregate in a university setting. Given
this, it's reasonable to expect a customer base for a record store
selling a good selection of classical music.
I consider it hair-splitting to criticize John for using the
term "appalling" to describe his reaction to the lack of same, rather
than "surprising" or "disappointing".
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mary
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response 79 of 194:
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Jan 24 00:02 UTC 2001 |
I would be fun to actually dig up some facts, market research
maybe, where the style of music (classical, jazz, disco, pop rock,
rap, etc.) is compared to the group most likely to purchase within
that genre.
I'd suspect classical would tend to be purchased by someone who has
completed more years of formal education than say rap. I would expect to
find the classical audience is somewhat older and richer. The jazz
audience would also be more educated than say the acid rock audience, and
likewise have higher incomes. Fewer visible tattoos too.
Pop audiences would be younger and poorer and still bitching about
how sucky school is. But they would tend to be able to stay up
all night long having sex until they run out of condoms.
So it all works out to be quite fair. And everyone gets to
feel they are better than everybody else. Truth.
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mcnally
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response 80 of 194:
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Jan 24 00:16 UTC 2001 |
re #77: Although I'm willing to revisit the issue of the relative
aesthetic value of "popular" music versus "music lover" music, I don't
think that's the only issue here, or even the main one. It's clearly
apparent to anyone who cares about music that the diversity of music
being recorded is declining substantially in conjunction with modern
music marketing and retail trends. Whether or not you like the music
that's most popular now, it's difficult to dispute that changes in the
industry have lead to less music being offered and more effort going
into developing and marketing acts that occupy a couple of very narrow
parts of the broader musical spectrum. Even without making value judgments
about which *kind* of music is better, as long as you're willing to agree
that less choice is worse than more choice then developments in the music
industry should worry you.
I'm not sure, though, why I should be afraid of making value judgments
when it comes to music. Granted, there is no complete objective aesthetic
standard by which we can settle disputes, but I have my own standards and
if those are too personal to be of value to anyone else, for any set of
listeners you care to define I will argue that that set will possess *some*
group consensus which will permit agreement on many gross value judgments.
Perhaps I'm just so "elitist" that it doesn't bother me to be called
"elitist", or perhaps I just reject the idea that without an objective
and impartial standard you're not allowed to care what happens, but
speaking solely for myself, I find what's happening in the world of
music distressing enough that I might agree that "appalling" is not too
strong a word..
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anderyn
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response 81 of 194:
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Jan 24 03:23 UTC 2001 |
Well, it *is* rather appalling that Ann Arbor can't support a really good
independent record store any more. (While Schoolkids in Exile is still there,
it's not easy to walk into and you have to special order things quite a bit,
in my experience.) I find the idea of not having the opportunity to actually
examine the things I am buying really annoying --- yes, I know you can listn
to a snippet from amazon.com....
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other
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response 82 of 194:
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Jan 24 04:13 UTC 2001 |
There is a steady audience for classical music in and around Ann Arbor of
several thousand at least. Not all of that audience is resident *in* Ann
Arbor, however.
There is a hardcore audience of early music enthusiasts of at least a
couple of thousand, though the same consideration applies.
U-M is home to a very highly regarded school of music, with a strong --
but not exclusive -- focus on classical musics. The upshot of that is
that people from around the nation, if not the world, seek out the
University of Michigan to attend this school of music.
These are undisputed facts, not somebody's ego-driven, unsupported
opinions.
National statistics on classical record sales and online vs. OTC sales
will both likely under-reflect applicable stats in Ann Arbor, due in part
to the highly developed technological infrastructure and community and
also in part to the average educational level, which *does* correlate to
awareness and appreciation of classical music.
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mdw
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response 83 of 194:
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Jan 24 06:12 UTC 2001 |
I wonder if Ann Arbor's difficulties in sustaining a classical musical
CD store is not as much related to the high cost of retail space, and
inept marketing, as anything else.
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bru
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response 84 of 194:
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Jan 24 13:22 UTC 2001 |
WEll, I think borders carries a wide selection of classical music, so I doubt
any independent store would do better sales wise. I just don't think the
market is there.
That is, there are times when one needs to buy a selection of the classical
variety, but once you have The New World Symphony in your collection, you are
not going to have to replace it very often.
I prefered to shop at Borders for its selection and conveinience as opposed
to any of the several other stores in town.
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slynne
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response 85 of 194:
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Jan 24 15:26 UTC 2001 |
I think that is the problem, Bruce. Well not a problem for you but a
problem for folks who would rather have a different retail experience. I
mean, the folks who like to shop at places like Borders and Walmart
certainly are getting what they want. Unfortunately, it seems clear that
the big chains *are* what most people want since they are the stores
that are still in business and nice little retail outlets with the
helpful and oddly dedicated staff are going out of business left and
right.
The fact is though that for some items, price is the number one concern
to me. I dont care how charming a record store or book store is, if I
can get the same book across the street at a big chain, I am going to
the big chain. Since I work for Borders and get a rather nice discount,
I havent bought a book or cd anyplace else since I started working here.
I like charming little stores but I guess I dont value them enough to
pay the extra money to shop there.
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