response 54 of 71:

Dec 2 23:12 UTC 2003

Jamie, unless you intend to file suit against Grex in a Michigan 
court for violation of the Nonprofit Corporation Act 162 of 1982, 
then I am comfortable ignoring your request.

If you are foolish enough to actually file such a suit, then I can 
pretty comfortably guarantee that your suit would be dismissed, 
probably with prejudice, and that a countersuit for costs incurred 
would follow.  

Your move.

response 56 of 71:

Dec 3 14:28 UTC 2003

I somehow doubt that if I went to, say, the Red Cross and asked for a
list with names and addresses of all their members, they'd give it to
me.  This would sure be a gold mine for companies that sell junk mail
address lists.

response 58 of 71:

Dec 3 17:08 UTC 2003

56:  That's a fair argument, but it doesn't hold.  Here's why.  The
American National Red Cross is an organization chartered by Congress in
1905.  The charter Congress granted permits members certain voting rights
in relation to the size of district clubs.  Now, any other governing
documents developed by the ANRC (including, but not limited to bylaws and
regulations, as permitted by 36USC 300105) may give members more rights,
but I do not have access to these documents.  As their national
headquarters is two blocks away, I could stop and ask for a copy at lunch.
But the long and short of it is that the ANRC is not subject to Michigan's
non-profit governance laws.

Now, Grex (properly, Cyberspace Communications) is organized as a Michigan
non-profit (from the Articles of Incorporation[1], "Pursuant to the
provisions of Act 162, Public Acts of 1982 the undersigned corporation
executes the following articles.")  Further, from Article II of the AoI,
"The Corporation is organized on a membership basis."[2] Once someone has
become a member then, they are granted a number of rights.  Some of these
are laid down in the Bylaws.  Some could be in the AoI, but in Grex's
case, none are.  And a lot are laid down in Act 162, Public Acts of 1982,
commonly known as the "Nonprofit Corporation Act."  Member's rights fall
pretty much under chapter 4 and include such things as the ability to
assign proxies (section 450.2421), request a year-end balance sheet
(section 450.2487), and the ability to request the membership list
(section 450.2413). 

Also, you should remember that when Grex was founded, these are
restictions that were voluntarily entered into.  I know many people who
create organizations as trusts so that they can lay down their own rules
and not have to worry about restrictions on corporate governance imposed
by the their respective states.  Or some people just go to Delaware where
the restictions are so linient, they have no teeth anyway. 

This has has been an issue with the Pacifica Foundation elections going on
this month.  They have not produced membership lists despite their
requirements under California governance provisions.  Listening to WPFW
here in DC has given me some entertainment as they dance around this
issue. 

57:  I do not have details on ACLU's structure at all.  It's also
complicated by the fact there are, in fact, dozens of organizations that
comprise the "ACLU."  Odds on, you can do this in at least one of them.

[1] A transcription of this document is available as item 1 of the coop
conference or http://www.grex.org/local/grex/articles.html. 

[2] If you really want to get deep into this, compare this to M-Net's
(properly, Arbornet) where the AoI states that it will be organized on a
"directorship" basis.  This confers these rights upon the directors and
the members have essentially no rights. 

response 60 of 71:

Dec 6 13:03 UTC 2003

And, the few votes you may have received have quicky evaporated - jp2, a
suggestion: don't ever run for a political position - you're supposed to
be good at making friends and being all positive and alluring...

response 62 of 71:

Dec 7 09:14 UTC 2003

Re#61: ??

response 64 of 71:

Dec 9 22:12 UTC 2003

So we don't need to amend the by-laws?

response 66 of 71:

Dec 11 18:47 UTC 2003

It's nice to have Jamie admit that his issue is with annual *meetings*
rather than our *elections.*   8-)

No, I don't think we need to amend the bylaws.

response 68 of 71:

Dec 17 06:12 UTC 2003

My statement in resp:54 is overtly and unambiguously a personal one.  
I do not claim to speak for the board or for Grex.  I do not feel 
compelled by the request to act upon it, because I believe it is not 
in the best interests of Grex to do so.  In any case, my feelings on 
the matter will be moot in a couple of weeks.

response 70 of 71:

Mar 30 05:28 UTC 2004

annoying