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Grex > Agora41 > #37: What can be done in the middle east? | |
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lk
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response 525 of 604:
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Jun 12 18:16 UTC 2002 |
15:33 Israel redirecting $1.2 million earmarked for Palestinian aid projects
to security for its politicians
18:12 IDF soldiers blow up car near Gaza settlement of Alei Sinai carrying
150-kg bomb
19:03 Palestinians: IDF arrests senior Tanzim activist in Ramallah area,
local Islamic Jihad commander
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klg
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response 526 of 604:
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Jun 13 01:54 UTC 2002 |
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/nytimes.html
New York Times Skews Israeli-Palestinian Crisis, May 1, 2002
"In a key period in late March and early April, as Israel suffered a wave of
unprecedented Palestinian terrorism prompting the Israel Defense Forces to
respond with incursions into areas under Palestinian Authority control, the
New York Times presented a decidedly skewed picture of events. Reporting
focused heavily on Palestinian suffering while continually minimizing the
personal toll on Israelis. The number and prominence (judged by placement
and size) of news stories and photographs regularly cast Palestinians as
blameless victims of Israeli aggression. Israeli victims were rarely even
named, much less profiled. Guest Op-Ed's were overwhelmingly tilted toward
condemnation of Israel.
"The Times' distorted presentation of events is especially troubling given
the paper's influence on its readership, policy makers and other members of
the media. The analysis below covers the period from March 28-April 11."
(Followed by a 4 page review and analysis of the type and amount of coverage
in the New York Times.)
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amalik
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response 527 of 604:
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Jun 13 06:23 UTC 2002 |
A tiny state whose legitimacy is still suspicious pampered by West plays havoc
with hundreds of lives in Palestine, west tricks out many methods to save
Israel and it always succeeds for the world knows only what it want to
know,thay bombards Iraqis for the same thibgs which Israel performs with elan
in front of the world....have the world ever thought what makes some people
go for their life and be a suicide bomber?when you snach from them their
dignity their land and every purpose to live they die and they die for their
cause just as the US soldiers die for theirs.Is there any one listening????
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scott
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response 528 of 604:
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Jun 13 12:04 UTC 2002 |
Sure, there are people here listening. Leeron comes across as a pro-Israel
bigot, and he spends the most time in these items.
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bhelliom
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response 529 of 604:
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Jun 13 14:37 UTC 2002 |
If you read the posting throughout these items, you'll realize how
right Scott is. There are people here listening.
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lk
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response 530 of 604:
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Jun 13 17:08 UTC 2002 |
Malik, the argument that people turn to terrorism because they are
supposedly "brutally oppressed" or "occupied" defies history. In truly
tyrannical regimes, terrorism is not possible. Terrorism manifests itself
in open and democratic societies.
Nor does someone wake up one morning, make a bomb and a video, infiltrate
into another country and blow-up themselves in an effort to murder and maim
as many innocents as possible. Quite frankly, NOTHING can justify that,
but the point is that these are not individuals acting alone. I'm sure you
know that the word "Tanzim" means "organization". Tanzim and other such
groups are behind these barbaric attacks. Potential bombers undergo
extensive training (and brainwashing) before they set-out on such missions.
Nor are these attacks acts of desperation by people trying to protect their
homes and families from brutal soldiers. To the contrary, these people are
leaving the safety of their homes in order to attack Israelis (as Assad noted
in the Arab League Summit of October 2000. Ironically, he argued that the
Arab world should support the Palestinian Arabs precisely because they are
fighting rather than staying in the safety of their homes).
Many have noted the counter-productive impact of such bombings. Yet are
these organizations stupid that they continue with such attacks? Or is
the peanut gallery missing the real reason behind the terrorism?
If the terrorists meant to secure peace and safety for the Palestinian Arab
population, they obviously aren't achieving their results. Clearly they have
a different objective -- and actually they don't hide it at all (read the
Hamas or PLO Covenants). Their declared purpose is to scuttle the peace
process and continue the war to destroy Israel.
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scott
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response 531 of 604:
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Jun 13 22:47 UTC 2002 |
See? Leeron is happy to follow the extreme right Israeli line: Come up with
somewhat dubious historical justification for oppression (sort of like Nazi
Germany claiming Austria as "always part of historical Germany). And then
he acts all suprised when the natives aren't quite happy with the situation.
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klg
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response 532 of 604:
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Jun 14 02:12 UTC 2002 |
If scottie bothered to pay attention, he'd see that leeron
would be more than happy to relinquish most of the disputed
area to the Arabs. However, he continues to live in his own
anti-Israel dreamworld. Poor little scottie.
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scott
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response 533 of 604:
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Jun 14 02:47 UTC 2002 |
As usual, nicknames instead of substance.
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pthomas
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response 534 of 604:
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Jun 14 04:01 UTC 2002 |
531: Or like Edward Said claiming Israel as part of "historic Palestine?"
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mdw
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response 535 of 604:
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Jun 14 04:53 UTC 2002 |
Beam me up, Scottie.
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lk
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response 536 of 604:
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Jun 14 14:38 UTC 2002 |
Scott, I'm so glad that you summarized your own #531 in #533 and thus
saved me the trouble. Let us know when you are ready to discuss issues
(not just cut & paste from electricintifadah.com but then be unable to
defend their propaganda) rather than enter twittish flame-bait.
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scott
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response 537 of 604:
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Jun 14 14:50 UTC 2002 |
Leeron, I'll again (once again) the question you've yet to answer: Do you
believe that your arguments actually help Israel?
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lk
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response 538 of 604:
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Jun 14 15:38 UTC 2002 |
News from the last 24 hours:
18:05 EU to add 3 militant Palestinian groups - Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades,
PFLP and PLP - to terror group list
17:49 U.S. closes embassy in Islamabad and all consulates in Pakistan after
car bombing at consulate in Karachi
17:39 IDF sappers safely disarm 40-kg explosive device found next to Dugit
settlement in northern Gaza Strip
15:46 New PA Interior Minister General al-Yahya: we want to `put an end" to
militias, shooting and bombing attacks
11:49 Death toll in blast outside U.S. Consul in Karachi rises to eight,
with 26 people injured
09:37 IDF uncovers large explosive device outside West Bank city of
Qalqilyah; intended for detonation in Israel
21:18 Danish People`s Party: Israeli wine will be served at party`s yearly
gathering as a sign of solidarity
18:31 Arafat says will set Palestinian election date within next few days
18:07 Shin Bet(1): member of Fatah`s(2) military wing arrested last week
for planning suicide attack in Tel Aviv club
17:36 Shin Bet: Palestinians holding VIP cards smuggled weapons in their cars
for money
15:37 Fatah`s al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claims responsibility for Tuesday`s
suicide attack in Herzliya
Notes:
(1) Shin Bet is the initials of the Israeli state security service.
(2) Fatah is Yasir Arafat's faction within the PLO (an umbrella organization).
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lk
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response 539 of 604:
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Jun 14 16:00 UTC 2002 |
Judging from my email (and not what a few flame-baiting twits say in
these items), I think the people who read my arguments (and who see that
you and others can't respond to them) do support the Israeli position.
Which isn't to say that they're going to do a 180, but hopefully they'll
be more critical of some claims (e.g. that there was a massacre in Jenin
when there wasn't. That a pregnant woman lost her baby because of delays
at a checkpoint when the woman herself, contradicting her doctors' press
statement, thanked the Israeli soldiers for rushing her through. That a
child playing soccer was shot by Israeli troops when he was actually shot
while throwing a fire-bomb and his body was dragged back to the soccer
field. That a man killed in a car accident was tortured and killed by
Israel. That M16s can't be silenced and that Israeli soldiers don't use
silenced M16s to hunt children, contrary to the report of an "eyewitness"
who obviously couldn't have seen what he claimed without hearing that
the M16s were not silenced but that the muzzles were rubber-bullet
adaptations -- which could also not cause the damage at the described range.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. And this isn't even dipping
into political or historical falsehoods!)
Of course I realize that there are people who want to hold on to their
biases, who evidently want to believe these falsehoods that conform to their
[mis]understandings and who will attack the messenger (as one person openly
stated in item 125).
Others will argue and debate because they like to do so.
In which camp are you, Scott?
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scott
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response 540 of 604:
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Jun 14 18:38 UTC 2002 |
Which camp? Can't you remember from the last time I told you, Leeron? Or
is your own memory lapse to be another excuse to call me a twit?
Before Leeron showed up I supported Israel over Palestine. Now I've done a
180 on the subject. Go figure, huh?
But you didn't exactly give an answer to my question. You claim to get a lot
of email from people who support your position... Did they already support
your position? Did you personally convince them of the rightness of Israel's
actions? or are they just more true believers like klg or Rus?
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russ
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response 541 of 604:
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Jun 15 00:55 UTC 2002 |
Let's see, Scott lets his feelings about one person and his style
determine what he thinks about an entire nation. Does this say
more about the nation, or Scott?
Frankly, if I'd been dealing with the kind of murderous hate that
Israelis have been dealing with since even before modern Israel
was founded, I'd have returned it in full force. Yet despite being
at the mercy of Israelis for years, the Palestinian Muslims still
exist; the reverse is not true. This says more than words can say
about the situation there, and Scott's failure to even grasp the
nub of this point says an encyclopedia's worth about him.
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scott
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response 542 of 604:
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Jun 15 03:29 UTC 2002 |
Indeed. Says a lot about you and Leeron, too.
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lk
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response 543 of 604:
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Jun 15 05:01 UTC 2002 |
Scott, I won't presume to speak for others, but I would be more impressed
with something you said if you at least tried to stick to matters of
substance rather than your anti-Leeron meta-discussion.
Is the problem that you can't address the issues? I've been waiting since
Winter (item 20, resp. 344-347, 360-361 and others) for you to defend your
cut-and-paste job from electricintifadah.com -- and next week Spring will
give way to Summer. If you can't refute my response to your propaganda,
why are you sticking with it?
Do you think anyone is impressed that on such a basis you (allegedly) changed
your viewpoint? Or is the more plausible explanation that you want to silence
me precisely because you cannot respond to the information I provide?
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scott
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response 544 of 604:
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Jun 15 13:29 UTC 2002 |
Leeron, I'm not going to try to argue with you in the narrowly-defined area
you are good at. The meta-discussion is much more interesting to me anyway.
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russ
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response 545 of 604:
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Jun 15 15:52 UTC 2002 |
Scott would rather cast vague aspersions than deal with the point
(especially the point I made, that Muslim Arabs survive and even
prosper under Israeli rule, while Jews under Arab rule are typically
murdered). In other words, Scott thinks murder of Jews by Arabs is
so banal that it is no longer worthy of comment; whatever slights
might be perpetrated by Israelis trying to *prevent* such murders,
however, are an outrage in his eyes.
Fortunately the world is quickly moving away from anything resembling
sympathy with such sick, bigoted views.
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lk
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response 546 of 604:
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Jun 15 15:59 UTC 2002 |
Your response makes it appear as if Russ was correct: you've (allegedly)
changed your political viewpoint not on the basis of issues or arguments,
but based on your opinions of one individual.
If you don't want to discuss any of the various (and not narrowly-defined)
issues, then perhaps you should forget this item and join the flame cf
(M-Net has one if Grex does not). Not that you're good at it, but your
antics would be more appropriate in that type of a forum. Or is your
intent to harass and silence someone who challenges your positions
precisely because you can't defend them?
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lk
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response 547 of 604:
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Jun 15 16:06 UTC 2002 |
10:10 Palestinians fired mortars overnight at IDF troops in Erez industrial
zone(1) in southern Gaza
12:53 Construction to begin Sunday on security fence between Israel and
territories
13:21 Sixty families planning to establish `ecological kibbutz` in Gilboa
area in north
14:29 Defense Ministry: Green Line separation fence to be extended 25-km
in order to include Gilboa area
17:12 Suspicious car containing 2 mortar launchers explodes by Nissanit,
in Gaza, after IDF troops shoot at it
Note:
(1) The Erez industrial zone is a joint venture where both Israelis and
Arabs were to work together, side-by-side. It has often been the target
of terrorists precisely because they oppose such peaceful cooperation.
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keesan
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response 548 of 604:
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Jun 15 16:24 UTC 2002 |
I wish you people would stop insulting each other in public, but I appreciate
the effort everyone is going to in order to inform other grexers of some
atrocities being committed probably by both sides. I still think the basic
problem is that there are 10 times as many people in the area as there used
to be and they don't all fit comfortably. No good solution.
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scott
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response 549 of 604:
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Jun 15 16:29 UTC 2002 |
Wow, where to start? So now I'm sick and bigoted because I dare dispute
Leeron?
Perhaps it's because Leeron's arguments cried out for skeptical investigation
that I started seeing more of the Palestinian side of things.
I don't have the free time to argue the way Leeron does. Nor the fanaticism.
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