|
Grex > Agora41 > #37: What can be done in the middle east? | |
|
| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 604 responses total. |
lk
|
|
response 500 of 604:
| 
Jun 3 14:21 UTC 2002 |
One minor correction to #497. The line:
|In the 20th century, Jews started turning to European powers for "protection".
Should have said 19th century, as was evident from the dates that followed.
|
mdw
|
|
response 501 of 604:
|
Jun 3 20:04 UTC 2002 |
Actually, when I said "palestinian" jews, I wasn't necessarily accusing
them of being natives of Palestine.
As best I can tell, "relations" in Palestine between the various groups
there have varied from reasonable harmony, to out & out genocidal
warfare. This was true during the middle ages; it's been true ever
since down to modern times, and it was *also* true even before, going
back into prehistory. There were hill forts in palestine before writing
was invented. It's a sure bet the hill-fort builders didn't just build
them because they liked the architectural style. The middle ages
evidence of course gives convenient support to everyone who wants to
argue there was peace, war, that there jews, arabs, or "nobody" around
during the middle ages. More generally, this history has left us with
at least 2 modern groups who have plausible claims to the area, and at
least 2-3 more that could easily make such claims -- and that *all* such
groups who could make such claims today are descended one way or another
(probably several ways) from invaders.
|
lk
|
|
response 502 of 604:
|
Jun 4 00:49 UTC 2002 |
Except that some invaded (or not) 4000 years ago and went on to create
a locally governed nation (which split north and south), the only such
nation-state to EVER exist in the area. (Since the time of city-states,
all other rules were FOREIGN empires.)
Other than this, the region is no different than much of the old world.
Yet I don't see Sudeten Germans seeking to destroy the Czech Republic
or justifying terrorism because they have a "right of return" and the
Czech's illegally colonized the Sudetenland. Yet even if these Germans
were to call themselves Sudetenians and reject the peace treaties and
compromises of the last 50+ years, I don't expect that anyone would
seriously argue that there would be "peace in our time" if only the
Czech's would vacate and allow for Sudetenian self-determination.
|
mdw
|
|
response 503 of 604:
|
Jun 4 02:33 UTC 2002 |
So from which piece of ancient Israel do you draw your descent and claim
your heritage? North or South?
|
lk
|
|
response 504 of 604:
|
Jun 4 03:55 UTC 2002 |
South. Why?
|
mdw
|
|
response 505 of 604:
|
Jun 4 04:54 UTC 2002 |
So what are your feelings concerning those people from the "north" --
are they entitled to their own independent country?
|
lk
|
|
response 506 of 604:
|
Jun 4 19:02 UTC 2002 |
That's about as relevant as discussing the American South.
Differences between the Israelite North and South were mended about
2500-2700 years ago.
Did you have a point to make?
|
mdw
|
|
response 507 of 604:
|
Jun 4 21:30 UTC 2002 |
So how do you feel about the phoenecians?
|
happyboy
|
|
response 508 of 604:
|
Jun 5 13:49 UTC 2002 |
didn't they invent the record player?
|
lk
|
|
response 509 of 604:
|
Jun 5 13:49 UTC 2002 |
They were good neighbors. I wish they were still around.
Thanks for asking, but did you have a point to make?
(Or are you being a "twit"?)
09:26 Seventeen dead in bus bombing at Megiddo Junction in northern Israel
09:29 Military wing of Islamic Jihad claims responsibility for Megiddo bus
attack
10:12 Deputy Defense Minister: PM Sharon asked security cabinet to show
restraint in wake of bus attack
10:37 Egyptian President Mubarak leaves for Washington to hold talks over
Mideast violence
13:17 Tenet to Arafat in Tuesday meeting: If you don`t act against terror,
U.S. will not restrain Israeli response
14:20 IDF tanks enter Jenin, helicopters circle West Bank town in initial
response to Megiddo Junction attack
15:16 UN envoy Larsen on Megiddo attack: Such acts of terror are morally
repugnant
15:41 PA security chiefs meet in Ramallah, decide to arrest all members of
Islamic Jihad military wing
Wow, that's a great idea. It took them 21 months to reach this conclusion?
Will they be released from the turn-style jails in 2-3 days? Or while they
are at it, will they think to arrest all Hamas and PFLP members -- before
they commit more acts of terrorism?
16:13 Secretary of State Powell in radio interview: Intifada "hasn`t brought
them [Palestinians] anything but grief"
|
mdw
|
|
response 510 of 604:
|
Jun 5 21:16 UTC 2002 |
I find your notion of connectedness to the ancients to be somewhat
arbitrary, and less than relevant to most of those around today.
|
klg
|
|
response 511 of 604:
|
Jun 5 23:57 UTC 2002 |
re: " 15:41 PA security chiefs meet in Ramallah, decide to arrest all
members of
Islamic Jihad military wing"
Based on the reports of the activities of the Church of the Nativity
terrorists who are under the watch of US & British overseers,
merely being in custody does not prevent them from initiating
more acts of terrorist violence, though.
|
lk
|
|
response 512 of 604:
|
Jun 6 07:56 UTC 2002 |
Marcus, I'm not sure what you mean in #510. Are you questioning whether
today's Jews are connected to the ancient Hebrews?
|
lk
|
|
response 513 of 604:
|
Jun 8 15:58 UTC 2002 |
20:46 Mubarak tells CNN: Arafat `has no control` over terror, as `he has no
police, no intelligence`
20:44 5 people hurt, 4 seriously, when man opens fire during family feud in
W. Bank; [Palestinian] police hunting gunman
Desipte their lack of police & intelligence, the PA "Police" has no problem
aprehending "collaborators" and the PA "judicial system" has no problem
finding them guilty in 10-15 minutes and issuing death penalties. (Note that
in over 7 years, the PA "Security Courts" have yet to acquit a single
defendant!) Listening to Mubarak, one can almost forget that the PA Police
is about 4 times the size, per capita, of the Detroit Police.
|
lk
|
|
response 514 of 604:
|
Jun 9 23:45 UTC 2002 |
Saturday's news:
11:15 Three Palestinians, one of them a preventive security officer, killed
in explosion near Gaza Strip fence
16:48 IDF sappers detonate large bomb near Gaza security fence where three
Palestinians died in earlier blast
11:34 [Israeli] Man seriously injured in Karmei Tzur shooting attack dies
of wounds
11:53 Large-scale fire breaks out near Jerusalem Kibbutz
[Terrorist arsonists are suspected in what may be a return of a tactic of
setting forest fires which was used in the 1987 intifadah.]
13:12 Report: Iran to increase financing for Islamic Jihad suicide attacks
in Israel by 70 percent
|
lk
|
|
response 515 of 604:
|
Jun 10 04:48 UTC 2002 |
Sunday's News:
07:31 Six mortar shells fired at IDF posts in northern Gaza Strip Saturday
night; no injuries reported
08:01 Mortar fired at Gush Katif settlement in Gaza Strip; no injuries
reported
08:04 Eyal Shorek, wife Yael, killed in Karmei Tzur to be buried 10:00 A.M.
at Mt. Herzl military cemetery
08:05 Shalom Mordechai, 35, killed in Karmei Tzur attack to be buried 5:00
P.M. in Nahariya
09:07 PA: IDF imposes curfew on several Palestinian villages near Yitzhar
settlement
09:44 IDF closes Kalandiyeh checkpoint south of Ramallah due to warnings
of terror attacks
10:03 DFLP claims responsibility for Saturday`s shooting attack on W. Bank
settlement of Yitzhar
14:57 PA Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo: New Palestinian Cabinet to be
announced at 5 P.M. Sunday
20:38 Shin Bet arrests Force 17 member Said Khatib, 30, from Qalandia, for
involvement in terror attacks
20:41 Wanted Hamas member Yusuf Malakhi among those killed in Fri. blast
in Gaza Strip while planting bomb
21:45 Palestinian official: PA arrests two Islamic Jihad activists accused
of planning Megiddo Junction bombing
22:59 PA police arrest senior Islamic Jihad leader Sheikh Abdallah Shami
in Gaza City
00:00 Swedish police arrest two Palestinians suspected of belonging to
international terror groups
|
russ
|
|
response 516 of 604:
|
Jun 10 11:48 UTC 2002 |
Re #513, first item: Has any reporter been able to ask Mubarak why
Arafat wasn't able to control the terrorists when his police and
intelligence network was intact? Any record of the answer?
|
lk
|
|
response 517 of 604:
|
Jun 10 15:13 UTC 2002 |
Today's news:
11:41 Hamas, Fatah slam changes in PA saying Arafat didn`t replace most
ministers, didn`t appoint PM
15:45 Newly-appointed PA interior minister says security policies will not
be influenced by U.S., Israel
16:39 Poll: 54 percent of Palestinians in territories support continuation
of suicide bombings inside Israel
17:46 Some 30 people arrested in IDF raid in Ramallah, including two
would-be suicide bombers
18:02 U.S. says it captures al Qaeda terrorist in Chicago, prevents attack
with radioactive dirty bomb
|
lk
|
|
response 518 of 604:
|
Jun 11 06:35 UTC 2002 |
The interesting item above is the first (11:41) headline. Arafat lack of
real reform is being criticized by (elements of) his own party.
More news from last night and this morning:
18:47 EU welcomes PA cabinet reshuffle, says it will continue to help
efforts to reform, modernize administration
19:22 Bush: conditions not in place for Palestinian state because no
confidence in emerging PA gov`t
21:11 Jerusalem`s Moment cafe, destroyed in suicide attack, which killed 11
three months ago, set to re-open
[I had a hot chocolate there last summer.]
21:17 IDF troops arrest wanted militant traveling in Palestinian ambulance
at Gush Katif junction in Gaza Strip
21:30 IDF says two car bombs found during operation in West Bank city of
Ramallah
00:21 Soldiers shoot dead Palestinian in Gaza Strip after he opens fire on
cars on Kissufim-Gush Katif road
07:01 Morocco arrests 3 al Qaeda members, planning to attacks U.S., British
ships in the Straits of Gibraltar
07:28 Work to begin Tuesday on security fence along Green Line border with
West Bank
|
bhelliom
|
|
response 519 of 604:
|
Jun 11 13:05 UTC 2002 |
Leeron, how often do you make trips to Isreal. Do you still have
family there?
|
lk
|
|
response 520 of 604:
|
Jun 11 15:47 UTC 2002 |
Every year.
My mom lives there, as do various cousins; my sister flies over tomorrow.
|
bhelliom
|
|
response 521 of 604:
|
Jun 11 16:11 UTC 2002 |
How does your family deal with living there? Are they in a
particularly dangerous area?
|
lk
|
|
response 522 of 604:
|
Jun 12 02:27 UTC 2002 |
About 5 miles away from the suicide bombing in Herzeliya today (a 15
year old girl was murdered and 11 others injured), and a couple miles
away from the gas depot which was nearly blown up a few weeks back.
Mom works in dwontown Jerusalem a couple days a week, not far from some
of the popular targets. A few months back she was at the office, working
with Holocaust survivors, when a bomb shook the windows. What fun.
Mom drives or takes a taxi, never a bus. And we talk often, just to
make sure we know everything is ok.
|
klg
|
|
response 523 of 604:
|
Jun 12 02:56 UTC 2002 |
From the Wall St. Journal Online (6/10):
"Two Palestinians gunned down 24-year-old Yael Sorek . ..
"This attack didn't occur in Israel but in Karmei Tzur, a neighborhood in the
West Bank Jewish community of Gush Etzion. According to the L.A. Times,
Karmei Tzur's establishment "is part of a plan to expand Jewish settlements
in the West Bank, despite . . . calls for an end to the practice." The San
Jose Mercury News picks up the L.A. Times piece, but in place of the word
practice it uses the highly charged term colonization.
"Colonization? According to the Israeli tourism site Travelnet, Jews were
living in Gush Etzion as early as 1927 . . . Arabs drove Jews out of the area
during Israel's War of Independence:
"In May 1948, after months of siege . . . the defenders could no longer
withstand the numerically superior forces of the Arab Legion. Their end came
a day before Independence was proclaimed in Israel.
"The Arabs massacred the 127 defenders, raising the total number of dead at
Gush Etzion to 240, and then set about uprooting the trees. The defenders
and those who died trying to lift the siege showed incredible valour.
"There were the 14 Jews who blew themselves up in their armoured car when they
saw no possibility of escape from swarms of Arabs attacking them on their
return from Kfar Etzion to Jerusalem.
"Then there were the famous 35, killed to a man while on their way through
the Valley of Elah to lift the siege (see Route No. 6).
"Finally there were the 20 women and youngsters entombed in the cellars of
a building dynamited during the final battle. Their bodies were recovered
and reinterred when Israeli troops recaptured Gush Etzion in 1967."
"After Israel recaptured the West Bank in the 1967 Six Day War, many survivors
of the 1948 siege returned to rebuild their community. To describe this as
"colonialism" seems simplistic to say the least."
|
bhelliom
|
|
response 524 of 604:
|
Jun 12 13:59 UTC 2002 |
I can certainly understand needing to keep in contact with her, even
more so given what's going on.
|