response 53 of 159:

Apr 16 11:04 UTC 1996

People have unsolicited thoughts about other people -- including
erotic thoughts -- all the time. Fact of life. I don't know if
people have erotic thoughts about me much, but I consider the
prospect that they might to be flattering, not bothersome.

I seriously doubt that the phenomenon of people having erotic
thoughts about other people has much to do with the availability
of pornography.

response 55 of 159:

Apr 16 14:08 UTC 1996

Speaking of zipless fucks, btw, for a good time, read _Fear of 
Fifty_ by Erica Jong.  Turns out that she's been reviled by American 
feminists over the past couple of decades for the erotic frankness 
of many of her books.  She sees right through the antipornography 
feminists.  She also rejects the women-are-innocent-victims mindset.  
Feminism, she says, doesn't need a Big Lie.

response 57 of 159:

Apr 16 15:56 UTC 1996

The first sentence of response #54 is sincere.  Nothing after that
sentence in response 54 or 55 is directed at you.  

response 59 of 159:

Apr 16 23:08 UTC 1996

How do you determine whether someone is being sincere?  

response 61 of 159:

Apr 17 03:39 UTC 1996

Re #50:  It seems to me, beeswing, that you have a predjudice against people
who look at pornography.  You also seem to feel ownership over the word
"feminist", when actually many people describe themselves with that word and
they don't all agree with one another.

Re #58:  Accusing everyone who disagrees with you of insincerity is a rather
desperate measure.  For my part, I trust that everyone in this discussion
has been sincere about their views.

Re #60:  I think your theory of a "great societal effect" has potential, Marc.
Do you have any evidence to back it up?  Anecdotes won't do, I'm afraid, 
because we have all stipulated that individuals can be mature about their 
experiences with pornography, and you were talking about a general trend.

I must say that in general I am not sure anymore what is meant by
"objectifying" someone.  Would someone define it for me?  (And don't just 
say, "treat someone like an object".  I treat different objects in 
different ways, so that statement really doesn't mean anything to me.)

response 65 of 159:

Apr 17 13:08 UTC 1996

In #58, beeswing, you said, "with the exception of mcpoz and popcorn, 
I haven't found any sincerity."  That's what aruba meant in #61 when 
he talked about you "accusing everyone who disagrees with you of 
insincerity."  I'm afraid it's true.

response 67 of 159:

Apr 17 13:20 UTC 1996

(See what happens when you decide to respond, think about each
 point, find you have a whole lot to say, realize it's not worth
 the time, enter a few short lines, and then find two people have
 entered responses while all that was happening.)

response 69 of 159:

Apr 17 15:13 UTC 1996

re #65: Think what you will Michael. 

I know not everyone who defends porn is not necessarily a porn consumer. I
have to applaud iggy for admitting that she has used it at some point. I don't
think it's something a "die hard" femninist would appreciate or have use for,
but I don't know igyy well enough to dispute her femninism.

But, many here seem like they'd die for the cause or something. Admission of
being gay is not the same as admitting you use porn. In many instances,
admission of homosexuality means disownment from family, loss of job, and
maybe even murder. Porn hardly has those reprecussions for its users.

response 71 of 159:

Apr 17 15:48 UTC 1996

so.. am i reading you correctly, beeswing?  it doesnt matter what i have
done or not done with my life, it all becomes null and void because
of the one point that i dont think porn is evil? because of that
*one* issue, i cant be a feminist?
you said you really cant dispute the fact that i call myself a feminist because
you dont know me well. but you hinted that i couldnt be..  all because
of the porn issue.

i would like to interject a theory at this point.
perhaps the reason that people are horrified at the idea of porn is
because they dont believe people are responsible for their own actions?
eg "i never would have raped that woman if it wasnt for pornography"
"i never would have driven drunk and killed that family if the
bartender would have stopped serving me drinks"
"my son never would have killed himself if it werent for those
awful heavy-metal lyrics"

people are responsible for their own choices, and their own actions.
to blame music, movies, magazines or other people is the coward's way
out.
 i think it gives society a false sense of security. they think if they
can remove the objects that cause the innappropriate behavior, that
the innappropprriate behavior will cease.
it is too horrifying to think that people would commit atrocities of
their own volition.

response 73 of 159:

Apr 17 23:41 UTC 1996

Igy, I said I had no grounds to dispute your feminism. So I'm not. What I
meant was that someone who is adamant in their feminism doesn't ormally care
for the submissive role that porn can put women in.

Aruba, you of course have every right to counter my views. But when you label
me as prejudiced and I get insinuations of "you think porn is bad so you're
narrow minded and I'm not" isn't calling me on anything. It's a putdown.

My statement has nothing to do with feminism... do not twist my words.
Impersonal casual sex id bad because there is NO love in it, and it's also
dangerous... ever heard of AIDS? And in casual inpersonal sex, one or both
people are stteing themselves up for being used. That is durty.

How nice you have no quarrel with me. I can sleep easy now. No pun intended.