response 50 of 143:

Oct 2 06:06 UTC 1996

Actually, that's sad but true, I know several Grexers who won't
read this conference solely because of ker's posts.

response 52 of 143:

Oct 2 15:10 UTC 1996

At the time the move cf was made, I didn't read coop, because I had gotten
quite a bit behind, and didn't have time to catch up.  I have since caught
up (obviously. ;) and now read coop.  So, there were members, at least one,
who liked the move cf.  However, the majority of people who objected when
people said "Leave the move stuff in coop" were users not members.

response 54 of 143:

Oct 2 22:51 UTC 1996

   I don't know, Arnold.  Grex seems to be rare on the net.

response 56 of 143:

Oct 3 17:37 UTC 1996

How can you possibly make the motd better?  It's a list of announcements. 
Should we frame it with some ascii art and have an automatic registration for
a trip to Aruba (not Mark's place, sillies!) every time you read it?  The motd
has *nothing* to do with how many people read coop, so stop making such
negative correlations.

response 58 of 143:

Oct 4 02:45 UTC 1996

I like the MOTD when it is just a line or two about something happening in
the next few days.  
I like the birthday announcements, but I'm not sure I like them in the MOTD.
For me, its just a bunch of strangers patting each other on the back, and I'd
just as soon not read  personal information about strangers every single time
I sign on.  Especially for newbies like me, it makes grex seem somewhat
clique-ish.  
I *do* understand that grex is trying to build a sense of community among its
users and members, but some of us are less inclined that way than others. 
Maybe agora should have a birthday banner, and those of us who just want to
check our mail won't feel like we've wandered into a restaurant where the
staff is singing "happy birthday". 
I , personally *like* birthdays and hope we all have lots and lots of them,
with parties and champagne and presents and everything.  But not in MOTD. 

response 60 of 143:

Oct 4 14:28 UTC 1996

I like the birthdays in the motd.  As a matter of fact, that's what got me
into conferencing.  I wanted to know how to get onto the birthday list, and
someone told me "Read agora.  There's something there about it." Now, years
later, I'm still here. 

response 62 of 143:

Oct 4 17:22 UTC 1996

Being the Libertarian that I am, I'd probably have to leave Grex
at that point.  Ah well.

response 64 of 143:

Oct 4 17:46 UTC 1996

First of all rob, if you were a true libertarian, you would oppose
all limits that grex places on your access.  Your very

participation on the grex board is a betrayal of your so called
libertarian beliefs.n  Member dues are in effect taxes placed upon the
citizsens in order to maintain the system.  Imposing member dues as a
trade-off for access is the antithesis of what libertarians are all about.

The setup of grex though, the idea that uasers can allhave erqual voices
and that whether it works or not is a result of community evffort, that is
the basisof socialism.    

But pure socialism doesnt wor,k, and nieither does pure libertariainism.
Soo grex is a compromise, something like the oldSoviet Union, which wsa an
autocracy run by a small group of people,based on broad communistic
ideals.    But the idea that ibnvididuals in the soviet union, just as in
grex, have any real power is an illusion. Only those who are involved,
members of the power structure, have any real power.  In, the soviet
union, you joined hte communist party to have influence.  In grex,you join
the borgmember collective.


So rob, yoi are not a true libertarian, oryou couldnt be here.

response 66 of 143:

Oct 4 19:21 UTC 1996

I think that Grex has two strongly overlapping communities (one centered on
the conferences, one on party, each much fragmented) and a mess of users who
are no part of any on-line community here.  It's clearly the conferencing
community that runs the show, though we try to be considerate of other users.
(It's also the community that generates most of our income, but that probably
isn't the point.)

We often say that Grex's first priority is to be a effective community, not
to be an efffective service provider.  Of course, it's not surprising that
we say that, since the people saying that are the people who founded the
system and who run it to this day, and they are all dedicated to conferencing.

I don't think we should feel guilty about not giving an equal say to people
who only want Grex to be a place to get free Email service.  Yes, we do that,
and we are happy to be able to provide a service, but if that's what we were
about this would be a whole different kind of organization.  There are all
sorts of people who we don't give equal say to:  people who want an
organization to get firearms legalized or to protect abortion or lobby for
computer-related legislation or overthrow totalitarian governments in Central
America.  Grex has users who are interested in all those things, and, who
knows, Grex may actually have some small impact on some of those issues,
but none of those tasks are what Grex is incorporated to perform.  Being a
charity-class ISP *is* a part of our mission, but only a small part.

So actually, I think if people who only come here to get email notice that
there is a community here because of the "birthday messages" then that's 
great.  We want them to notice there is a community here, that Grex is more
than an Email provider.

response 68 of 143:

Oct 4 20:56 UTC 1996

To clarify, I am not ignoring the contributions that robh makes
because I know he does a lot.  But he is one of many who seem
disinterested in the idea that by becoming a strong community
grex can serve a purpose that is far greater than its immediate
function.  When you form succesful small communities, you lay the
foundations for forming larger ones.  I want to see boards like
Grex not only work within their boundaries, but to work together with
m-nets and hvcn's of the world.  But I propose joint memberships, 
or helping in other ways possible to help preserve htese other
places, and people like robh are the first to object.  Why?  
Because their involvement in grex is correspondent to the extent
to which it serves their needs.  Grex is a tool to robh,
not a community.  The grex community is vibrant, and it is reflected
not through coop which only a few read, but through agora which is the
main conf.  Rob has made it VERY clear that he does not and will not
read Agora.  Noone should serve on the board who doesnt read Agora, 
it is an act of willful ignorance of those you represent.  It is
worse than not reading coop.  It is not enough for the board members
to be up on simple issues, they need to KNOW who they are representing.

M-net is dying because too many people were looking out for their own
interests and instead of one community, you had several and none 
able to effectively work with the others.  Grex will go the same way
unless it makes EXTRA efforts to bring together all its diverse elements
into one vibrant community.  

The potential of the internet is in whether it can turn the Cyberspace
citizens into a community, working together to save the planet.  But as
long as so many people like robh, simply see it as a tool to advance
libertarian ethics, to AVOID community and responsiblity in the name of
individual liberty, it will never be what it can be.

response 70 of 143:

Oct 4 22:01 UTC 1996

(Just as I was getting ready to enter this, a blue jay flew
up and perched on the tree outside for a few seconds.  Jays
are know for their belligerence, territorialism, and loud
annoying calls.  Coincidence?)

I've been ruminating on kerouac's accusations back in #'s 67
and 68, since I didn't want to fly off the handle this time.
kerouac seems to think that I want Grex to be a fairly Libertarian
place because it's easier for me to use Grex that way.  Do I
use Grex for my personal benefit?  You bet I do!  I always have.
I doubt that anyone on this system doesn't use Grex for some
personal gain, be it entertainment, programming experience, or
just being able to talk to other people.  I'm curious to know
why kerouac thinks we *should* be using the system, if not for
our personal benefit - should we all devote two or three hours
of our time per day to perpetuate something we don't enjoy?
Should we all sign a contract vowing to give up all of our
worldly possessions and donate them for the next JCC sale?
(If so, please let me keep my computer, it won't get more than
$10 anyway.  >8)

At the end of his brilliant television series "The Day the Universe
Changed", James Burke said that the computer, and the computer network,
were inventions which could either make the regimentation of
humanity more permanent and more horrible than they had ever been
before, or they could blow the doors wide open and create a benevolent
anarchy where all views could be freely expressed and tolerated.
Folks who know me can probably guess which side of that equation
I want to end up on.  >8)

To that end, I've done as much I could to make computer access easier
for everyone.  Even back in college, when my libertarian (*my* definition
of libertarian) tendencies became apparent, I would show people how to
access Usenet and mailing lists and conference on the U of Michigan
Confer system, to help them take part in this wonderful new culture
which was just getting started.  More recently, I've helped people
learn how to access those things, and more, via Grex.  And for the
last year, I've been lucky enough to be a staff member here, rebooting
the system, resetting passwords, and helping to keep both the Grex
and Internet cultures going.  I can't say it's a perfect society we
have here in cyberspace, but I think the "real world" could learn a
thing or two from us.  And I think it just might, given time.

I certainly don't want Grex to roll over other cultures and beliefs,
trampling them into the dust and perpetuating the ONE TRUE WAY, whatever
that is supposed to mean.  And that's what I keep hearing whenever
kerouac goes off about making Grex more like a socialist society.
I don't want to take anyone's individual liberties away from them -
no, not even kerouac's, though he makes it tempting >8) - no, I want
this to be the place where people talk about things they don't feel
comfortable discussing face to face, where people can send and
receive mail on any topic they want, where they can talk (or not talk)
with whoever they choose.

Do our users owe us anything?  I don't think so.

Should we force our users to participate in the decision-making process
if they want to?  Absolutely not.

Should we make participation easier?  I'd say so, but I don't see any
good way of doing any more than we already are.  Anyone can come
here and say whatever they want, and know that they will be heard by
anyone else who chooses to participate.  I respect the rights of Grex
users who choose NOT to be here, as much as I respect the rights
of those who do.

(Gods, it's taken me twenty minutes to enter this, I wonder how many
responses have slipped in already...)

response 72 of 143:

Oct 4 22:28 UTC 1996

Well, I like Agora, but why should Robh (or any Board member) be forced to
read it?  

Kerouac, if you keep making up "shoulds" for the Board, you'll end up turning
Grex into another M-Net.

response 74 of 143:

Oct 4 22:45 UTC 1996

  (I'm biting my tongue about the libertarian/socialist debate, because
it's drifting even further than most co-op items!  :-)
 
  Going back to the original item topic, things Grex could do better,
Grex could be faster.  CPU-wise, I mean.  I generally lean toward having
slightly fewer ptys than most of Grex's staff favors.  For a while, in
the spring and early summer, I thought Grex had a good balance, but things
have shifted toward more users and slower speeds since then.  It's a
perennial question, and the tradeoffs have been already been debated to
death, but since the balance is always changing, I thought I'd state my
current opinion on it, which is that we're again on the slow side.