response 51 of 239:

Jan 12 08:01 UTC 1996

Like kerouac, I am also shifting my view of "unlimited open access", which
I accepted for a while as a fundamental goal. It has been the deluge of
non-member net users, and the diminution of dialin users that is affecting
my opinion. [When I can't get in from the net, because all ports are busy,
I can *always* dial in - either we have a miniscule local community of
Grex users, or they all have net access anyway.] One thing this brings up
is that our "new" internet access policy, adopted not more than a couple
of years ago [ 8^}], but not yet implemented, may be passe - it is heading
in the wrong direction, for the purpose of emphasizing a Grex "community"
as opposed to a Grex "internet host service". 

response 53 of 239:

Jan 12 11:58 UTC 1996

In fairness, I've been on plenty of mailing lists that wouldn't
unsubscribe me until I'd sent three or four requests to the
list owner, followed by a message to their postmaster.  Patience
can be one of the most important things to using computers.

response 55 of 239:

Jan 12 13:11 UTC 1996

It seems that a lot of list owners don't know how to remove people.
<sigh>
And I second what Klaus just said.  When I logged in Grex was giving new
meaning to the word "slow".  (My PC hangs a lot.  I kept thinking it had
hung, whenever elm took half a minute or more to read in one message in
coming up.)

response 57 of 239:

Jan 13 01:40 UTC 1996

I really think Grex should concentrate on being a local resource first,
and a net resouce second.  Aside from a few folks who are not local to
Ann Arbor, most of our most loyal members are from around here.  The
pattern I see is that non-locals mostly join to use the Internet
services they can't get as cheaply elsewhere. Once they see how slow we
operate and that we don't offer news, they quickly lose interest and
let their memberships lapse.

Locals who become members tend to stick around longer.  I think this
is because they can participate in Grex activities outside of just
being on-line, i.e. they attend potlucks, go on walks, etc.

It's sad to say, but I think all this use via the network is actually
turning local people away.  And this means that, in effect, we're
turning away potential members.

response 59 of 239:

Jan 13 04:45 UTC 1996

I don't think we should ignore the exceptions to the rule re: users
who come in from the Internet. The Gaylord people have managed to
contribute a great deal, and they began in party. The McKendree
people, being of a less stable population, probably haven't, but I
wouldn't reject their contribution to Grex. I think we may have been
able to capitalize on the impression that Grex was simply another 
feature of their system. ;)

For that matter, we seem to have a new strength of presence in
Columbus, primarily through word-of-mouth. Slowly, but surely,
even they're moving into the conferences. My anecdotal example:
hematite, whom I've known from party for nearly two years now,
seems to have taken an interest in an item about dolls. Besides the
grexohio conference, I think it's the first time I've seen her in
the conferences.

I guess I've always hoped that getting the youth involved in 
as many activities on Grex as possible makes for users who are
concerned about Grex's future and who will contribute when they
are able. I suppose my Achilles' heel is that I don't know how
to do that and sustain my interest in doing so.

response 61 of 239:

Jan 13 06:00 UTC 1996

I just sat here trying to resist the urge to say "I told you so",
and failed. Over a year ago I tried to get everyone to see what 
kerouac said in 43, and Rane in #51. I'm relieved to see that the
view is beginning to shuft, but I just wish there had been a better
way that having a figurative truck falling on everyone.

response 63 of 239:

Jan 13 06:53 UTC 1996

Agreed. What can be done to make such users the norm, and what can be
done to make users feel that they should contribute to Grex?

response 65 of 239:

Jan 13 15:46 UTC 1996

Wild horses couldn't make me forget nephi.

It'd take at least $1000 before I consider it.

response 67 of 239:

Jan 13 21:11 UTC 1996

In the discussion of how to build a better Grex community, let's not
lose sight of the fact that we already have quite a good one, and how
that came about.  Okay, there are a lot of users who aren't really
part of it, but I don't think we would have the community that we do
if we didn't put out a very large welcome mat and give users a lot of
leeway on how they use the system. Some percentage of those
eventually find the conferencing and become part of the community;
the rest either leave or continue to do their own thing in isolation.
But I'm thinking that a lot of our most valuable community members
wouldn't be here if we didn't offer the kind of openness and
flexibility that we do.

Steve Weiss is an excellent example of what I'm talking about.  If I
remember correctly, he needed an email address, learned that Grex
offered free email, got an account.  For some time all he used Grex
for was mail. At some point he discovered the conferences, but for a
long time was a reader only, not entering any responses. Eventually,
he felt comfortable enough and started participating in the online
conversations. From there, he went on to become a board member, board
chair, active and valuable staff member, then branched out to become
active in other community online services. I hardly think that any of
this was Steve's intention when he first logged onto Grex to use it
for email.

That's pretty close to how I got involved in computer conferencing
too, years ago on M-Net. I was teaching a course in C programming,
but the university mainframe that I could access from home didn't
have a C compiler at the time. This was inconvenient. Somebody told
me that a system in Ann Arbor called M-Net offered free access to C
and other Unix software development tools. So I dialed in, made
myself an account, and for the first few months did little on M-Net
but C programming and experimenting with various Unix tools.
Eventually I found bbs and party, became an active participant, and
went on to be an M-Net staffer, and subsequently a Grex founder.

Would Steve Weiss be here if we didn't have the kind of flexibility
that allows people to explore the system at their own pace, without
pressure? I doubt it. I wouldn't be here either. I can think of a
lot of our highest-profile community members who wouldn't. Yes, there
are a lot of people who use Grex resources who aren't part of the
"Grex community", and there's a cost associated with that. But to
what extent is it an inevitable cost of building the kind of
community that we have?

response 69 of 239:

Jan 13 21:24 UTC 1996

Also note that none of the Ohio folks have become members. :(

response 71 of 239:

Jan 13 23:38 UTC 1996

I came here for selfish reasons too.  I wanted e-mail, and heard that Grex
had free e-mail, but I didn't conference for a long time after I started using
Grex for mail.  I also used Grex to learn a lot about Unix, before I ever
started conferencing (although that became a lot easier after I started
conferencing, since I could ask questions).  Eventually I did start
conferencing, and became a member, and then a board member, etc., but if it
hadn't been for e-mail I don't think I ever would have logged in in the first
place.  Conferencing for me, and I'm assuming for a lot of other people, is
something that has to be discovered, rather to go out searching for without
knowing what it is.  I think we'd lose a lot of the people who eventually
become conference participants if we lost our openness.

After I came to Grex looking for mail I started playing around with other
things besides conferencing, and managed to learn a lot about Unix, and about
computers in general.  It's proabably in large part because of playing around
on Grex that I learned enough to be qualified for my current job.  I think
the community would lose a valuable resource if Grex decided it was just a
conferencing system, rather than all of the many things it currently lets
people do.

Of course, maybe we don't want Grex to be such a great resource.  Maybe our
focus is too broad.  Maybe we should cater just to those who are actively
looking for a conferencing system, without even knowing what a conferencing
system is.  I don't think so.

response 73 of 239:

Jan 14 01:53 UTC 1996

  I can speak for myself and for a number of others in the DC area (there are
more DC grexers, like Freeland Frieda (used to be anyway), Signet and others
than you might realize now)  We have a terrific freenet in DC (capaccess)
and we all had e-mail addresses.  But what our freenet didnt and doesnt have
is a conferencing program of the quality of Picospan.  In fact the sysops of
capaccess wouldnt want picospan because they cant manage the user loads as it
is.  So while we use our freenet for email and files and such, and I know the
Columbus freenet users do the same thing, we end up telnetting out to places
like Grex to find confs that are worth participating in.
   So my guess is that it is the local ann arbor users who are more  likely to
be using Grex for just e-mail.  Those of us who telnet here are obvoiusly 
coming from somewhere so we already have 'net access.  Limiting e-mail would
have the effect of limiting those who are *using* grex, as opposed to those who
are trying to be a *part* of grex.
    If Grex's future is to be a service, as opposed to a doorway or provider of
other services, there might be a point down the line where it needs to be 
considered whether to cut the number of phone lines and become telnet only like
many other boards.  I think its more important for Grex to protect its
and nourish its conferencing environment than it is for Grex to be a simple
service provider.  There are a growing number of non-local grex users who pay
or acquire their own 'net access to get here but end up badly lagging because
local a2 users are simply *using* grex for free services such as e-mail, rather
than trying to be part of the community.
  Sooner or later, Grex has to decide what it wants to be because its 
impossible to be all things to all people.  Is it REALLY realisitic for Grex
to be a doorway and a unique destination at the same time and be effective in
either role?