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Grex > Coop7 > #125: Reconsidering putting new users in agora | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 76 responses total. |
kerouac
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response 50 of 76:
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Nov 17 03:31 UTC 1995 |
yeah rob, but when abylaw is amended, the bylaws file is changed.
the minutes of individual meetings float by like any other message
and when the conf is restarted it is forgotten like any other item.
I wanto to know why there isnt a file of codified rules kept on
here that staff goes by is all.
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sidhe
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response 51 of 76:
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Nov 17 04:35 UTC 1995 |
I would back the concept of the introduction conference, if
for no other reason, so the newbies have elsewhere to go than
Agora, which can be a monstrous thing.
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popcorn
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response 52 of 76:
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Nov 17 04:58 UTC 1995 |
Kerouac -- Mary Remmers maintains archives that contain the minutes of every
Grex board meeting, and a lot of other nifty stuff. Look in the directory
/usr/local/grexdoc/archives to find them.
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ajax
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response 53 of 76:
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Nov 17 08:32 UTC 1995 |
Kerouac, a file of "codified rules," summarizing policy decisions from
board minutes, would probably be an interesting read. However, it would
take some work to create and maintain it. If you have a strong interest
in this, maybe you'd be willing to undertake such an effort?
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janc
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response 54 of 76:
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Nov 17 16:04 UTC 1995 |
I don't think we should over-emphasize written rules.
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lilmo
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response 55 of 76:
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Nov 17 18:19 UTC 1995 |
Well, *I* don't think we should be discussing that here !!!
I would like to express my support for rcurl's point that the instructions
in newuser are very much the sort of stuff we would want in an intro cf. I
think we sould seriously consider implementing the intro cf, *in conjunction
with* a rewrite of the newuser text files, moving as much of that as possible
and advisable to the new intro cf. To address chelsea's concern, we should
make it VERY clear that we are letting them wade in the shallow end of the
pool before we toss them in the deep end, and encourage them to make their
way over there as they feel willing and able.
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janc
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response 56 of 76:
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Nov 18 04:56 UTC 1995 |
Many newusers never enter the conferences at all. Some head straight to
party. Some only want an account here so they can use the Email. Lots
of our users don't ever want to see the inside of Picospan, no matter how
friendly it is made. I haven't run Newuser lately, but I don't remember there
being all that much info there. Why move what is there into a conference,
where many of our users will never see it?
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rcurl
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response 57 of 76:
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Nov 18 06:17 UTC 1995 |
If all newsuers automatically go into the intro cf first, and are
there exposed to the newuser information, it is up to them if they
ever want to go back or not. But it would be more readily available,
in a context known to most users. I can never remember how to reread
the newuser information, but I'd probably look at it now and then, even
now, if it were in a cf.
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davel
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response 58 of 76:
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Nov 18 12:48 UTC 1995 |
Um. Rane, do we have newuser ask them, as it does now, which shell they
want? Then if they pick anything but bbs, they're not going to wind up
in any intro conference, because newuser ends by logging the new user in.
It would not be impossible to change this, I suppose - we could set things
up so that their .profile/.login files rewrite themselves the very first
time the user logs in, or something like that - but I really fail to see
enough advantage from that.
It might be worth while to pull out info from newuser & put it somewhere
easy to access, OTOH - that, after all, is the advantage you stated. Or
are you *also* saying that we should impose Picospan on all new users
regardless of their wishes, the first time, for some other reason?
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robh
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response 59 of 76:
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Nov 18 13:10 UTC 1995 |
Of course not every user goes to the conferences. That's
part of why I want to have an Intro conference, so we can
make the conferences look a little friendlier to our new
users. Maybe we can put a message in the motd telling
our users to check it out...
<robhs runs away from the mob of staffers who don't want
the motd getting any longer>
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scott
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response 60 of 76:
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Nov 18 14:09 UTC 1995 |
How about tweaking newuser to create needed files for the main shells, so it's
easier to change after the fact? Like always create a .login and .cshrc for
people who want to dump the bbs shell for csh? Or does it already do this?
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robh
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response 61 of 76:
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Nov 18 15:09 UTC 1995 |
It doesn't, but I'd love to see us do it. I've lost count
of the number of help-seekers who've gotten into trouble
by switching shells without having the right files.
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kaplan
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response 62 of 76:
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Nov 18 15:39 UTC 1995 |
I don't see a problem with the newuser program dumping everyone into
the intro conf for some of the info that's currently in the newuser
program including how to choose a shell and how to run the change program
to select one.
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janc
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response 63 of 76:
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Nov 18 18:12 UTC 1995 |
Creating all files would be dumb. What we need is a version of chsh that
gives you new files, preferably by extracting stuff from your old files.
Or we should set up bbs to use .login instead of .profile.
I don't see why we should require all users to learn how to use bbs. It's
not a wonderful environment for beginnners.
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popcorn
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response 64 of 76:
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Nov 18 21:57 UTC 1995 |
I've been intending for years to switch bbs to using a .login instead of a
.profile.
Re having newuser create both sets of files: That makes some sense, but it
also encourages people to edit the wrong one ("I changed my .login but it
didn't work") or to be confused when they switch shells and their settings
don't get carried over if they have made changes since they ran newuser.
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wisdom
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response 65 of 76:
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Nov 18 22:48 UTC 1995 |
Well, I picked the menu when i got here, 'cause I wanted a tourguide,
so to speak. The top thing on the menu, saying something like"check
this out!" was bbs. Now, if someone wants to go o party, or mail,
that's one thing but I know that the menu pushes you to try the bbs
system, and so do the helpers if you ask them where to go, as a new
person.
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kerouac
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response 66 of 76:
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Nov 19 00:45 UTC 1995 |
As long as we are talking about "newuser", I might add that I'd
eliminate the questionaire on it and put a "questionaire" program
online. I dont think people should be prompted, even given a choice
of entering a blank line, to list their address and phone # and other
personal information. Many newusers dont know that this is optional,
that they dont have to give this information. And even if they choose
to suppress the info they have typed, as they are given the chance to do so,
the info is online.
Over on mnet, there have been instances where users, mostly young kids,
have been harassed over the phone or in person by people who read their
.plans. These kids either ran newuser too fast or were too ignorant to
know that they had options over revealing this info. Therefore, I
think to protect users from even the remotest possibility of such abuse,
I think newuser should not prompt them for this information (meaning
the questions specifically of address and telephone #)
I'd rather see a customized questionaire that any user can run oonce on
the system. Newuser really only needs to prompt for user name and
login settings.
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rcurl
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response 67 of 76:
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Nov 19 18:34 UTC 1995 |
Re #58: I hadn't thought ahead far enough to consider it a problem to put
newusers into an into cf even though they chose another shell, but now
that I am thinking about it - why not? It can be an easy-to-use
introduction to cf'ing, as well as the newuser's main information source.
It can be tailored to be even easier to use than the regular agora, by
more prompts (like, how to end a response with a "." 8^}). The main
problem would be to help newusers get *back* into cf the next time they
log on, since many will want to see it again (I would guess). Probably
remaining in cf mode should be the default, until they intentionally opt
out to the shell they (think they) want.
Hmmm...I have logged into systems where the user is given the available
options, like menu does, every time they log in. Currently menu is set up
as the person's main shell, but it is just the menu program run under csh.
Perhaps the login screen should be just a choice among the shell options -
including the Intro cf. (Yes, I know about dumb terminals - special
login window for those....)
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davel
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response 68 of 76:
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Nov 20 00:27 UTC 1995 |
Hmm. Rane, I think Marcus has given reasons for not doing Picospan that
way, on several occasions, which amounted to "studies show that if you
dump users into novice-mode situations most never bother to leave them,
never learning how to do things; but if you provide them with information
when they ask for it only, they learn how to do things." (Marcus, if I've
misconstrued you, say so.) I think I agree. I think the help for Picospan
could be much improved, but I ***really*** hate the things where you *always*
have to wait while the system draws menus etc.
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kerouac
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response 69 of 76:
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Nov 20 00:51 UTC 1995 |
Yeah but marcus's points are theoretical, not based on practical
situations. I dont think he was referring to specific studies (has
there ever been an intro conf on grex, mnet or similar boards?)
This is something that could be *experimented* with for say, six months
or something, and if it doesnt work, we'll know it and revert back to
dumping people into agora. At least trying it for a while cant hurt.
And to explain my previous post, I think newuser gives newbies the impression
that they HAVE to give their address and telephone # to get a login.
That even though they can supress it from other users, it is info the
system requires before installing a login. This is wrong and misleading.
Newuser should only ask for a name, pw and login specs. People can
customize their .plans once online.
Im also wondering that if a newbie gives the system their address and
phone # and then supresses it at the end of newuser, whether that
info is still filed online, such that staff can give it to the secret
service or the fbi. Technically, even supressed, the info was still
voluntarily provided.
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popcorn
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response 70 of 76:
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Nov 20 03:13 UTC 1995 |
Re 69: Marcus has more conferencing experience than any three of the rest of
us, put together. I'd hardly call his conclusions merely theoretical.
I don't necessarily agree with all of his theories about how users work,
but he's certainly had lots of time to observe.
Yeah, I agree that newuser to some degree makes it sound like you have to give
a name and address. Lots of people do give completely bogus ones, though,
so some percentage of users does realize that the info is optional.
The info you enter when you run newuser is all stored on-line in a file
that the staff can access. We generally use that file for rebuilding people's
system startup files after those are eaten by the disk problem. That name
and address info is pretty darn secure; I trust every one of our roots not
to go giving out real address information to anybody who doesn't have a
court order.
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rcurl
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response 71 of 76:
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Nov 20 06:40 UTC 1995 |
I just went through newuser and it is quite specific and clear that you
don't have to enter anything except *a* name - though a confused newuser
might miss even what it says about that, not being sure of the
consequences of not answering the questions.
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janc
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response 72 of 76:
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Nov 20 18:43 UTC 1995 |
Personally, I like the fact that it encourages people to give real names.
Most Grexers do use their real names, and I think that makes a much nicer
environment than one where most people do not give real names. I feel
very strongly that we should encourage people to identify themselves by
name. I have no real problem if a few people don't want to and prefer to
go by an alias, but I'd much rather that didn't become the norm on the
system.
Anyone who gets intimidated into give his or her real name, and later
decides they'd rather be anonymous, can change it later.
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kerouac
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response 73 of 76:
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Nov 21 01:29 UTC 1995 |
Giving names is fine...and necessary...but root does not need
telephone #'s and addresses to rebuild files. I doubt that most
users bother reading most of the newuser screens. I think most
probably scroll by everything but the
bblank lines, which they fill in.
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popcorn
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response 74 of 76:
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Nov 21 05:06 UTC 1995 |
I've watched a lot of people go through newuser. Some people do that.
Others hang on its every word. It depends on the user's mood, their
knowledge of computers, and how much of a hurry they're in.
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