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Grex > Coop6 > #52: Let's talk about our problem with voting on Grex | |
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| 25 new of 90 responses total. |
arabella
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response 50 of 90:
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Dec 17 13:15 UTC 1994 |
I'd like to ask a small, impertinent question. Exactly when was
the notice asking members to vote put into the motd? For various
reasons I haven't logged on to Grex in several weeks, and I never saw
a notice suggesting I vote. I believe my last login before today
was Nov. 25. I'm not suggesting that it's anyone's fault that
I didn't log in for such a long time, but I think some kind of
notice a full month before the voting deadline would be a very
nice thing. If there was in fact a notice in the motd on Nov. 25
and I missed it, then I apologize both for not noticing it, and for
not voting.
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popcorn
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response 51 of 90:
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Dec 17 14:40 UTC 1994 |
Hm. I think it went in at about the time the polls opened, which
was December 1.
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remmers
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response 52 of 90:
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Dec 17 14:49 UTC 1994 |
The voting period was December 1-15, and the message was put in the
day the polls opened.
Leslie's situation ties in with something I've been thinking about.
For one reason or another, a member might not log in for an extended
period of time. Perhaps our polling period is too short for the nature
of this medium and the size to which the membership has grown. With a
two-week voting period, we didn't make quorum (but we got about 80% of
it -- we were only eleven votes short). With a four-week or six-week
period, I think we would have. I think we should consider retaining
the quorum concept and having a longer voting period.
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jep
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response 53 of 90:
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Dec 17 16:40 UTC 1994 |
I'll bet most people who were going to vote did so in the first 3
days, and if you'd left the polls open for another week you'd get no more
than 2-3 additional votes. I'm just guessing, though.
There's another problem with a longer election period; it's stressful
for the candidates. I would find it so, anyway.
It seems to me there are two problems here. The short term one is
that Grex needs a Board. Is anyone even authorized to pay the bills if
there's no Board? Does the treasurer's term expire when the Board's
does? The long term one is that it's going to need to elect a Board
again next year.
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robh
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response 54 of 90:
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Dec 17 17:19 UTC 1994 |
Sad to say, I agree with that. We only picked up, what, thirteen
votes in the second week, after sending them all mail asking them
to vote? I don't see another two or four weeks getting us those
extra votes.
As a candidate, I must say I wouldn't find it stressful to have
a longer voting period. I do find it stressful not getting a
quorum, though. >8)
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srw
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response 55 of 90:
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Dec 17 17:34 UTC 1994 |
This response has been erased.
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srw
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response 56 of 90:
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Dec 17 17:46 UTC 1994 |
I think that for some members not to be interested in the governance of Grex
is a normal natural thing. I belong to a number of organizations that
I support but don't have time to be involved in. I have chosen to spend
my time being involved with Grex. Others may prefer to do it differently.
I often don't vote in those organizations where I have no clue about the
candidates, and I think this is OK. I would be annoyed if they tried to
force me to vote.
I don't think it is a failing as Mary does. It is important
that there are enough people who do want to spent time and effort, though.
Fortunately, that does not seem in jeopardy.
If we pass my proposal and remove the quorum requirements from the bylaws
not a single soul will be disenfranchised. To be disenfranchised you have
to have your voting rights removed against your will.
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andyv
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response 57 of 90:
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Dec 17 19:49 UTC 1994 |
I think there is problem with viewing Grex like a coop or non-profit
corporatioIn the regular sense since the usual sense has not been applied to
organizations which include people who have such loose ties as they do here in
some cases. I live in Sault Michigan, am a newbie, and am below the poverty
level with six kids. The reason I am here at Grex is that of all the jplaces
I have an id, grex is the most open and it is unique in that it offers access
right away. Waht we are involved in is new and growing very rapidly so who is
to say that we should be fitting in an old model. Grex is a model of openness
and cooperation in an area which is becoming more closed every day.
Given my position in this growing environment, where do you think I should
fit in? I put a check in the mail last night after talking to steve. I want
to help this type of operation do well because of what it represents to me,
openness (one main reason). With all the newusers I see logging on, you/
we need to figure out just what we want from those people using this service.
Whethere anyone realizes it or not, Grex has become a major educational
force (amother top reason for existence) in a booming phenomenon. What is
Grex's greater purpose and contributions to cyberspace?
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jshafer
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response 58 of 90:
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Dec 17 20:28 UTC 1994 |
Forgive my slight confusion, but what exactly is wrong with the way Grex
is currently set up, as a non-profit corp? It seems to me like the people
who keep briging up the coop thing and suggesting that we become a legal
coop miss that point Rane keeps bringing up: A coop's purpose is to _Make
a Profit_, which is distributed between members. I'm sorry, but I for one
wouldn't have become a member if we wer a coop. My support goes to Grex,
not to the members of Grex.
When I first joined I was concerned about the fact that I was leaving for
the summer and that my access was rather shaky; I didn't want my inability
to vote to cause the sorts of problems we're having now. As I write this
I'm only two weeks away from leaving for 8 months. After Jan. 4th, the
next time I'll be able to use Grex will be sometime at the end of March. I
would hate my absence to cause problems, but you can rest assured that, if
given the opportunity, I will vote. I oppose a difference between voting
and non-voting memberships, and I think that quorums on Grex are not
really necessary.
Hey, is there any way I can get an abstention for whatever elections are
necessary to make these changes that are being suggested? :)
(apologies, I'm in a hurry and don't quite have time to finish this.)
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mdw
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response 59 of 90:
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Dec 17 21:00 UTC 1994 |
Co-ops can have any purpose their members care about. "Making a profit"
can be that purpose (& many florida orange growers belong to just such a
co-op), but that is not the only possible goal. In A^2, many students
live in co-ops; the goal there is obviously to provide the best home at
the least price. I'm a member of the PFC, which is essentially a
grocery store; I value my membership there not because of any
possibility of making a profit, but because they provide good food at
reasonable prices, and have many values that I respect and wish to
support.
Grex cannot be a co-op in the profit sense, because it's a
not-for-profit. But that's ok, because in fact what we want to do is
almost the opposite, we want to take "contributions" from the members,
and use it to provide a "good" for a wider community. That's very
different from the florida orange growers, but it's not really very
different from the PFC.
In the sense that we want to push ultimate responsibility for
the decisions onto the users, that is very much a co-operative
kind of notion, even if it has nothing to do with profits at all.
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rcurl
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response 60 of 90:
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Dec 17 23:50 UTC 1994 |
What Marcus descrbies - an organization that takes contributions from
members and uses them to provide a good for a wider community - is
*precisely* what a non-profit charitable corporation, and only such, is.
That's what Grex is.
Going way back - yes, it would probably have helped if we had announced
the election in the motd, and the voting dates, months in advance. Live
and learn. However this same problem will occur with *everything* that
requires a vote of members, if quorums remain. I'm not sure that even
earlier notice will help. I think Mary is right, that many members donate
to get a benefit, and become members only incidentally. I did that in AAA
- and I get a *proxy* request for their annual meeting. That's another way
to resolve the matter - but giving a proxy is no better than abstaining -
and maybe worse.
I think the fairest course of action is to give every member the right to
express their opinion by voting as they choose, including abstaining by
not voting.
These opinions, and any others I have ever expressed here, are solely my
own, and do not pretend to represent official policy of Cyberspace
Communications Inc.
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popcorn
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response 61 of 90:
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Dec 18 02:31 UTC 1994 |
I've been giving a lot of thought to the coop vs. non-profit issue.
Right now I'm leaning toward thinking that Grex has always been a new
kind of a creature, and we only frustrate ourselves by trying to fit
Grex into one pigeonhole or another. Why do we need to make Grex fit
into the definition of either a non-profit or a coop? Why not let Grex
simply be a Grex, and not worry about it? If we're a Grex, we can do
whatever seems right for a Grex and not worry about somebody else's
pre-existing script that was written for some other type of group.
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danr
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response 62 of 90:
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Dec 18 03:23 UTC 1994 |
Well, we can't exactly do that because we *are* a non-profit corporation
registered with the state of Michcigan. We do have to abide
by the laws which regulate non-profit corps.
Re: quorums. Although I don't think it's too much to ask people to
vote, I guess it's unrealistic to expect them to do it. So, I guess
I'm with Rane and Steve Weiss that we should get rid of the 2/3
quorum requirement.
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andyv
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response 63 of 90:
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Dec 18 05:38 UTC 1994 |
I have done a little more looking and reading around Grex and I discovered
two things I wonder about, maybe three. In Agora there seems to be lots
of hellos to new folks on Grex. What percentage of htese new folks can
we assume will become members? What percentage of users are members or
actively donating to Grex? I checked out the latest treasurer's report and
I couldn't find a depreciation account. That leads me to wonder where the
latest balance sheet is located. I should be able to get a copy from the
corporation commission (right? ;-) and one should be on file here too?
When does the Grex fiscal year begin?
I incorporated a search and rescue organization a few years back and I seem
to remember that the word "charitable" had a very specific meaning especially
pertaining to an organization's right to solicite donations and the delivery
of certain services. I will try to dig out the books I got from the state
and review this. does Grex keep on file the state's publications?
More than three questions :-)
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mdw
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response 64 of 90:
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Dec 18 11:51 UTC 1994 |
I believe the only word that precisely describes Grex's filing system is
"lamentable".
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kentn
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response 65 of 90:
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Dec 18 16:50 UTC 1994 |
I don't think Grex ever put a value on the equipment it has (and it
might have trouble doing so, or getting anyone else to accept that
valuation, as evidenced by the problems we had trying to insure the
equipment). There is no stockholder equity in Grex because there is
no stock. There are some long-term liabilities, perhaps, but mostly
everything gets reported in the P&L. (Depreciation assumes we know
the original/purchased value of the our plant & equipment, which we
don't).
Don't expect business-like recordkeeping at Grex, andyv. These
people are violently opposed to anything other than that necessary to
pay taxes and bills. At some point it will kill Grex, but not yet.
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andyv
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response 66 of 90:
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Dec 18 17:30 UTC 1994 |
The reason I mentioned depreciation is because it is the item which often
gets letf out with small non-profits mainily because it gets spent. Even
though a corp is non-prfit, the state allows it to end up with money at the
end of the year especially for depreciation. Since computer equipment
depreciates rapidly from what ever value you want to put on it, the gov't
allows, for very good and logical reasons, you to put that money aside
so the corp can replace it at theend of its life. It is the concept here
which is important.
The nice part about computer equipment is that you can tap into that account
and replace items with better equipment at almost the same price. So in
other words, the aprox $2000 on hand from month to month is not enough for
long term stability. That amount should be growing.
Just because the check book is increasing doesn't imply an organization is
making a "profit."
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srw
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response 67 of 90:
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Dec 18 19:00 UTC 1994 |
We probably should have a depreciation account for the disk drive we bought
and the tape drive we are going to buy. I think under $500 is an expense,
but these others are capitalized. Almost everything else we own is
junk.
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andyv
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response 68 of 90:
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Dec 18 22:38 UTC 1994 |
Since everything else is junk, then there should be a plan to replace the junk
when it' useful life is ended. If it is running on borrowed time, all the
more reason to be putting money away. How about looking at the next year
to start? Then the next three years if anybody dares.
Toward that end, I think free access is ok for lots of newbies like myself,
but the gravy train has to end at some point. Am I right that there are
a lot of nonsupporting users? There are lots of other free places to get
services after a person gets to know their way around. I know I decided
to make a comittment to at least two "free" nets.
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mdw
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response 69 of 90:
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Dec 18 23:49 UTC 1994 |
All of it was running on "borrowed" time when we got it; we are taking
advantage of "depreciation" but not in the way "andyv" thinks - what we
are using is the equipment that was depreciated and replaced, and is
often functionally obselete, but which has not yet actually reached the
end of its useful service life. Ie, we are scavanging for the "best
deals" we can find. Depreciation in the more traditional sense is a
tax/accounting issue; and grex may well be large enough someday to need
to do that. But it isn't today, and it's not likely to be so in the
next 2 years - so it's not worth losing a lot of sleep over.
There have always been a lot of non-supporting users, by design. There
are a lot of much more "commercial" kinds of systems out there; and
we're not trying to compete with them. We are instead trying for a
different niche - one where people don't mind paying so that their
friends can get on too. When the system first started, we were
expecting roughly a 10% membership rate, which I think is about what
we've seen. I know we took a dip when the internet flood-gates opened,
but that's to be expected; probably many people get on, look around, and
then decide to become members.
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kentn
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response 70 of 90:
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Dec 19 02:35 UTC 1994 |
andyv, are you making the assumption that Grex is paying taxes? I
don't believe we have up to this point due to our low level of income
(donations). In that case, depreciation doesn't help us. And there
seems to be an interpretation that depreciation is like putting money
into a savings account so that you can buy more equipment. Granted,
it should be like that, but in practice it doesn't usually work out
that way. Add to that that our equipment was donated, and so to the
IRS, probably has a zero value, and there's not much point to worrying
about depreciation (as mdw points out in :69).
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steve
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response 71 of 90:
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Dec 19 04:01 UTC 1994 |
Andy, we're getting between 45 to 80 new users on the system every
day; 15,400 people have taken out accounts here since we opened on
July 18th, 1991. With 91 current members and perhaps half that again
who were once members, roughly speaking one in 100 people who've come
across the system have joined.
Grex was founded with the idea of free access. I think that, in
contrast with Mary, we've done an excellent job of sticking to our
original goals. I've talked to many people over the years who have
been astounded at our openness, and that we've stuck to it. That I
know of, Grex is one of a handful of such systems in the world.
Unforunately, we're at the point now that we've really stretched
to the limits of our resources, in terms of system horsepower and
Internet bandwidth. Rane made a comment about _The Tragedy of the Commons_
by Garret Hardin, which is quite right. I really don't know how much
more we can grow with the equipment we have right now.
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cicero
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response 72 of 90:
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Dec 19 08:27 UTC 1994 |
> I think that, in
> contrast with Mary, we've done an excellent job of sticking to our
> original goals.
Do you mean that mary hasn't stuck to her goals? or do you mean this:
in contrast with Mary, I think we've done an excellent job of sticking to our
original goals.
Just thought we better clear that up :)
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mdw
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response 73 of 90:
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Dec 19 10:57 UTC 1994 |
Technically, in terms of bottlenecks, I'm not sure that we're
necessarily in that bad a shape. The most serious bottleneck we face is
in fact the internet link. It's only serious because it's the trickiest
thing to upgrade. Everything else is something that can be ultimately
fixed. We are now at a point where we do have to watch CPU cycles;
until now we have definitely acted as if they are "free". But, we've
been able to add disk & memory; & the CPU card, too, can be upgraded to
something about twice as powerful. By the time we outgrow that, I'm
sure we'll be able to afford something more powerful which will also, of
coure, have gotten cheaper in the meantime.
What this all means is, while we do need to think in terms of getting
more hardware, that is not beyond our means, and I don't think we need
to worry about changing our open access policy to any great extent.
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andyv
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response 74 of 90:
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Dec 19 18:27 UTC 1994 |
Concerning depreciation, I meant to bring attention to the state of financial
affirs at Grex which I think is not good business. there was a time when
depreciation wasn't part of the tax picture. The reason the gov't allows
companys to deduct depreciation is because they recognize that equipment
and structures have a finite life span and needs to be replaced. this
money at the end of the year is not income and I believe should be set aside
for replacement. The state will allow the cash to grow above the depreciation
and not consider it profit. Non-profit doesn't mean to imply broke or almost
broke.
With that said, does everyone reading this feel Grex carries too large a
balance in the checking act, too small or just right? And about those
items which were mention above to be purchased, how much will it cost
(don't remember who mentioned the items.
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