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25 new of 99 responses total.
gull
response 50 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 19 14:55 UTC 2003

Re #47: That was my experience, too.  My T-Mobile phone worked from the
time the power went out until about 7 pm (though with lots of fast-busy
signals and cancelled calls due to the circuits all being busy) but
after that I couldn't get a signal until about 8:20 am, when power came
back on in the area of the local tower.

At work we have no battery backup for our PBX, so when the cell network
clogged we effectively had no means of communications.  I'm not even
sure a backup for the PBX would have bought us much, because both our
voice and data T1 lines appeared to fail as soon as power went out.
slynne
response 51 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 19 15:00 UTC 2003

My land lines were fine but my parents' land line was down until 
Saturday. I dont know if my cell phone worked because I had forgotten 
to charge it and it had no power. I was wishing I had spent the extra 
money on a car charger. :) doh!
gull
response 52 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 19 15:06 UTC 2003

Just heard on the radio that SBC has said they won't pay people for days
they were out of work due to the power outage.  They'll have to either
use a vacation day or have their paycheck docked.
klg
response 53 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 19 16:21 UTC 2003

If those SBC employees belong to a bargaining unit, then any payment 
would be governed by the labor agreement and not be at the unilateral 
discretion of management.
dcat
response 54 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 19 16:28 UTC 2003

Was able to call to land phones fine from my Verizon cell phone, but had
difficulties reaching other cell phones, ranging from flat-out no response
at all to busy signals.
slynne
response 55 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 19 17:32 UTC 2003

All the people here in my department were told the same thing. We could 
either use vacation time or have our paychecks docked. Luckily for me, 
I always have Fridays off so I'll only lose the 45 minutes I left early 
on Thursday. 
anderyn
response 56 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 19 19:55 UTC 2003

Wow. We were told to count it as a paid working day, even if we didn't work.
Just like a snow day. One good thing, anyhow.
russ
response 57 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 19 23:27 UTC 2003

Going off-grid in town isn't much of an option.  A real off-grid
system has a lot of energy storage, whereas most on-grid RE systems
have no batteries and use grid-interactive inverters and net metering.
Without storage or an active grid connection, you're limited to the
power you can make at that very moment; if starting your refrigerator's
compressor requires more power than your system is putting out, you
can't do it (and everything else might shut down when it tries).

Batteries change the entire picture.  If you had an inverter running
from the battery of a hybrid car (the Toyota Prius has a 144 volt,
6 AH battery for about 850 WH of storage), you could run most
everything in your house save air conditioning and electric heaters.
Then your problem would be maintaining your energy balance between
production and consumption, which is much easier to do - and if you
already have the battery as part of the car, it's a lot cheaper.
jep
response 58 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 20 02:05 UTC 2003

I work for an SBC subsidiary, and will be paid in full for last 
Thursday and Friday.
scott
response 59 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 20 02:10 UTC 2003

Guess it depends on whether Catbert is running your HR department or not,
then.
scg
response 60 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 20 03:17 UTC 2003

I have no particular knowledge of the SBC situation, but at another large
telco, that was the sort of thing that started happening after management
announced that "our goal is to shrink through attrition."
goose
response 61 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 20 14:48 UTC 2003

We're getting paid for Thurs and Fri...like Twila they are treating it as a
'snow day' or whatever.  I came in part of the day anyway, and worked from
home for a bit.  
gelinas
response 62 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 24 23:22 UTC 2003

Checkout today's (Sunday, August 24, 2003) User Friendly at 

        http://www.userfriendly.org/static/
dcat
response 63 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 25 23:36 UTC 2003

Monday's (http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030825) is also good.
But then, I gather they pretty nearly always are.
gelinas
response 64 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 26 00:50 UTC 2003

True, but yesterday's was about the blackout.
russ
response 65 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 27 03:05 UTC 2003

Speaking of the blackout, I finally got a chance to read Saturday's
NYT article about it.  The details of the timeline are awe-inspiring
in the way massive forces marshalled themselves with such speed, but I
digress....

As it happens the problems began with First Energy in Ohio, but the
vulnerabilities are probably built into the system.  We depend too much
on long-distance transmission of power (which is not terribly efficient
in any case, and should be discouraged by policy) and the communications
system for handling imbalances is people yakking over telephones.  This
is good for problems coming up over the next hour, but totally inadequate
to handle lightning-fast changes over the next ten seconds.  If we are
going to continue as we are, we need to find ways to manage power much
better.  For instance, if First Energy had been able to cut every
air conditioner in Cleveland back to half power in response to the
power lines failing, the problem might never have happened.  If Michigan
had 2 GW of surge power on tap, the local grid would have stayed up
long enough to cut Ohio loose.  Etc, etc.  There are a lot of things
we need to address.
rcurl
response 66 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 27 03:32 UTC 2003

I found that the articles in the newspapers I read quote officials giving
oversimplified analyses of what they think happened, talking as though
electricity was like water being pumped around the system. One event that
was describe was an "unexplained" surge of 4000 megawatts into the
Michigan network. Well, electricity isn't stored in the network, so a
"surge" of power into the network would require that it be consumed
somewhere, but unless it melted a lot of copper, where would it go? Of
course, trey didn't say how long that "surge" lasted, and there could be
such a pulse into reactance in the system if the source phase slipped from
the load phase. That's the kind of detail I would like to read about.  I
suppose it will be available eventually. 

One commentator on NPR tried to explain how fast problems can move in the
system by saying that the "electrons move at the speed of light".
Well..not quite. Direct current electrons move at most at only centimeters
per hour, depending on the current and the wire cross section (there is a
calculator for this at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/miccur.html#c3). 
Disturbance, of course, move much faster as waves through the population
of electrons. If he had said, "disturbances move at the speed of light (in
the conductor)" he would have been OK. 

pvn
response 67 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 27 04:50 UTC 2003

Alright, so what moves and what direction does it move?  (Lightning
actually moves from the ground up to the sky, not the opposite which is
what we perceive as we are used to gravity - ie things don't fall into
the sky.)  

Muna is actually what was flowing, electrons are merely like ball
bearings that ease the way and some substances have more electrons
that are greased to ease the passage of muna.  It is entirely possible
that something in Ohio caused muna to rapidly leak out over the ground
and thus the direction of muna flow reversed course.  It is also
possible that somethings in Canada suddenly stopped wanting muna, and
since muna likes to keep moving once it is finally convinced to do so it
headed back home where it came from so the buckeyes may have been the
victims not the cause.  The other problem with muna is that it is hard
to coordinate things.  Some early practioners in the art of muna
movement decided to wiggle the muna to try to coordinate events and that
has worked pretty well so far but the modern problem is that folks are
trying to move muna really long distances and so its sometimes hard to
figure out what has happened after an event as folk don't always know
what time it is as wiggling muna confuses things.
rcurl
response 68 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 27 06:23 UTC 2003

Is muna a form of phlogiston? 
gull
response 69 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 27 12:59 UTC 2003

Re #66: Then you would have quibbled by saying "it's actually more like
70% the speed of light." ;>
rcurl
response 70 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 27 17:13 UTC 2003

I said "at the speed of light (in the conductor)" to include the reduced
speed of the disturbance in a conductor compared to that in free space.
Therefore I had already quibbled......
i
response 71 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 28 02:47 UTC 2003

What's to stop any given utility from rigging a computerized "fire
curtain" into their central control system, so that (when the larger
grid's getting out of control) they can both cut themselves off from
the larger grid and cut enough of their own load (via blackouts) to
achieve independent, local stability?
russ
response 72 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 28 03:16 UTC 2003

Re #66:  I expect that the (scientifically illiterate, if at all
typical) reporter was trying to get his mind around something
like the surge of power from Ontario and Indiana through the
Detroit area toward Cleveland, where powerplants were tripping
off-line as the failed powerlines overloaded them.

I expect that the solution is going to have to be systems which
automatically shed load (create local blackouts) if major power
sources are lost for any reason.  This is anathema to system
managers, but if there is no effort to reconcile demand with
supply the alternative is the risk of more huge blackouts.
rcurl
response 73 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 28 06:09 UTC 2003

Do you know why load shedding is disliked (if not anathema)? Load shedding
should go along almost automatically with generation dropouts. 

There is an ultimate technical problem with even using AC, which is phase
matching, which makes grid regulation tricky. Think of having two home AC
generators and trying to put them in parallel (it is even a problem for
load leveling, but phase matching makes it much harder). It would be
easier with DC (also with fewer losses), with the use of modern converters
for voltage shifting.

scott
response 74 of 99: Mark Unseen   Aug 28 10:30 UTC 2003

It is a bit amusing to think about technically-deficient explanations, though.

"My God, that power surge must still be trapped on the transmission lines!"
"Get me Jed Collick!!!"
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