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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 84 responses total. |
mcnally
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response 50 of 84:
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May 7 03:56 UTC 2002 |
re #49: When I worked at the Merit NOC in Ann Arbor they administered the
major (at that time, practically the only) national backbone connecting
what were at the time a bunch of regional network providers, and we did
it under the auspices of the NSF, which was paying the ANS partnership
(which Merit was a part of) government dollars to adminster the NSFnet
project.
The Internet isn't just something which escaped from the DARPA labs and
developed on its own with the help of kindly and cooperative private
corporations..
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jp2
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response 51 of 84:
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May 7 04:09 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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jp2
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response 52 of 84:
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May 7 04:15 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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brighn
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response 53 of 84:
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May 7 05:25 UTC 2002 |
#49> You admitted to using roads. You just claimed to use them as minimally
as possible. The Net, to my knowledge, is entirely privatized *now,* but that
hasn't always been the case. I want to see proof that, without the government,
the Internet would have arisen in the first place (remember when doing so that
State Universities are funded in large part by the government).
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mdw
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response 54 of 84:
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May 7 06:34 UTC 2002 |
Before the internet, there were national privately funded packet
switching networks. These were based on X.25, and used a
pay-for-every-byte-of-data funding model. It's hard to see how
something like DNS or HTTP could have been created on such a basis.
Most of the design and development work for the internet has definitely
been government funded. The basic packet architecture for IPv4
definitely predates NFSnet, and was created for a national network,
arpanet, that hooked together a number of universities and research
institutions. One of the reasons IPv4 spread so quickly was that darpa
funded a public network implementation, bsd Unix. This software base
became the basis for many early commercial router designs, and its
descendents can still be found in modern systems sold today.
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md
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response 55 of 84:
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May 7 11:23 UTC 2002 |
In fairness to Jamie, who needs all the help he can get here, wouldn't
you admit that even minarchists like Ayn Randites use whatever
government-funded services they have to? You might want everything
privatised except the courts, the police and the miltary, but in the
meanwhile you still have to drive from place to place on public roads,
you still have to send and receive mail, etc. Wanting public services
privatised doesn't obligate anyone to refrain from using public
services, and it certainly doesn't make them "hypocrites" if they do
use them. In fact, I see no contradiction in a minarchist going to
court if necessary to get a fair share of some government grant or
welfare program. To argue otherwise puts you in the same category as
the right-winger who tells a reform liberal "If you don't like it here,
go someplace else."
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other
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response 56 of 84:
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May 7 11:27 UTC 2002 |
If the general public never used the government funded internet
infrastructure, then why did I see a "For DOD use only" ARPA warning
every time I used an externally connected service from the terminals at
my Private college in the late 1980's?
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jp2
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response 57 of 84:
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May 7 12:51 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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brighn
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response 58 of 84:
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May 7 15:55 UTC 2002 |
#55> Well met. My point wasn't that libertarians should totally refrain from
any government services... indeed, even the hardest core libertarians would
have *a* government, and that government would do *something* (I believe
that's true of Randians, as well). Taking my argument to the logical extreme
(as was done in the last round), Jamie would have to refrain from using the
police in emergencies, something even hardcore libertarians wouldn't do.
My point was that it seems to me that everytime someone suggests that the
government use money for something Jamie doesn't want them to use money for,
he makes a snide comment about socialism. Any service that a government
provides to everyone is socialist. There are clearly many services that
everyone agrees the government should provide if we are to live in a civil
society, and many services that are contended.
#57> It's easy to say that you agree with someone else, and claim that was
your position all along.
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jp2
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response 59 of 84:
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May 7 16:05 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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slynne
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response 60 of 84:
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May 7 16:38 UTC 2002 |
Jamie just has his head up his butt. Everyone knows this. It is
pointless to argue with him. He is too stupid.
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brighn
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response 61 of 84:
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May 7 16:47 UTC 2002 |
You're correct, Jamie, I didn't respond to 51, and I see you address some of
my issues there. I'm not sure how I missed it. I apologize.
Addressing it now, I *have* seen privately-funded roads. The vast majority
of parking lots are privately funded, and they're about as good as the public
ones, sometimes much worse (and yes, sometimes much better).
Our local phone service, privately run, is a nightmare; it's only improved
in the recent year because of direct competition.
I agree with you about #37, but I disagree with you about #38. How is
rewarding someone for working for you a form of slavery? That last I checked,
that's what my company did (rewarded me for working for them... they give me
money).
I also disagree with you that financial welfare for the lowest economic rungs
are not conducive to a productive and forward-moving society. I have a friend
with severe depression; he was recently laid off, and without his employer's
insurance, he now faces a $400/mo pharmaceutical tab. The government has a
few choices: It could pay for his pills (socialism), it could force the drug
companies to stop overcharging (totalitarianism), or it could do nothing and
let him revert to his non-drugged state, in which he's socially non-productive
and potentially criminal (thus possibly leading to his incarceration, which
costs a lot more than $400/mo). If we completely eliminate the welfare system,
we create a lower class who lives on the fringe and may turn to crime in order
to survive (thus costing us more in the long run, as we prosecute and
incarcerate them). I agree with you that the current welfare system is flawed,
and needs to be replaced... but with what?
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other
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response 62 of 84:
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May 7 16:51 UTC 2002 |
Actually, it always seemed like a contradiction to me. Why was I getting a
"For DOD Use Only" screen if I was allowed to use the system? However, I did
indeed get that warning, which I take to mean that my access to other points
along the network was by means of Government funded connections.
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brighn
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response 63 of 84:
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May 7 16:52 UTC 2002 |
Other, your experience did not occur. Jamie tells us so, and Jamie knows your
experience better than you do. ;}
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jp2
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response 64 of 84:
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May 7 17:01 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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jp2
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response 65 of 84:
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May 7 17:06 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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slynne
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response 66 of 84:
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May 7 17:10 UTC 2002 |
re #65 It is so funny how easy it is to push the buttons of people with
delusions of grandeur.
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jazz
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response 67 of 84:
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May 7 18:29 UTC 2002 |
I thought that said "delusions of grammar" ... in either case ...
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bru
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response 68 of 84:
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May 7 19:31 UTC 2002 |
Well, damn me all to hell then, because I see NOTHING wrong with a national
service program. It has worked before, adn I suppose it is working now if
you want to stretcha point.
I am not saying people in national service should not get paid, nor that they
need to spend 2 years in the program. But there is NO problem with doing work
for the nation. AS long as you are given the choice and a way out and fair
compensation.
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flem
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response 69 of 84:
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May 7 19:52 UTC 2002 |
Uh, oh, Jamie referred to Nazis.
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brighn
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response 70 of 84:
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May 7 20:43 UTC 2002 |
#69> Yeah, but I'm having fun, so I'm not invoking Godwin.
#64> Huxley meant Brave New World as satire, too, but there's something to
be said for keeping the masses dumb and just happy enough to keep them from
breaking into *my* house. Feed 'em, keep 'em out of my way, and I'm cool.
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jp2
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response 71 of 84:
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May 7 21:00 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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jazz
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response 72 of 84:
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May 7 21:12 UTC 2002 |
News flash; we all do do work for the nation. Taxes.
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jp2
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response 73 of 84:
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May 7 22:25 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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jmsaul
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response 74 of 84:
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May 7 22:31 UTC 2002 |
Re #71: Um...
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