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Grex > Agora41 > #125: Peace plan details, from Camp David to Taba | |
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| 25 new of 173 responses total. |
happyboy
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response 50 of 173:
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May 21 16:41 UTC 2002 |
no...you heard it right. it was a percent in the high 40's who favored
what is essentially *ethnic cleansing*
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lk
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response 51 of 173:
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May 21 17:05 UTC 2002 |
> more territory loss for the palestinians,
Marcus, I'm still not sure why Jews living on land that has been owned by
Jews since before 1947 amounts to "territory loss". How can you lose
something you never owned? Should the Jews lose this territory simply
because it creates finger-like borders?
Lynne, what you mention sounds a lot like the Clinton ideas -- which
were rejected without as much as a counter-offer by Arafat.
I think the poll you mention reflects Israeli frustration after 19 months
of daily attacks by terrorists -- following Arab rejection of peaceful
compromise and negotiations. It's certainly not consistent with long term
opinion trends in Israel.
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happyboy
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response 52 of 173:
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May 21 17:23 UTC 2002 |
so maybe there wont be a *long-term* ethnic cleansing!
"we're only putting you behind the concertina-wire *for a little while*
until the poll changes."
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slynne
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response 53 of 173:
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May 21 18:18 UTC 2002 |
re#51 - I think the big part of the discussion in Israel right now is
not to negotiate the plan with Arafat. Just to go ahead and do it. It
probably isnt the best possible solution but it would be better than
the status quo.
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mdw
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response 54 of 173:
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May 21 21:46 UTC 2002 |
Leeron - you're putting words in my mouth. Sorry, but I'm not biting.
However, if you're arguing that Israeli should control "jewish" owned
land in the west bank, then surely you would be willing to see the
Palestinian Authority controlling fingers of arab owned land extending
into Israel? I expect you're not willing to argue that, in which case,
your jewish fingers argument loses credibility. Basically, there is a
difference between political borders and mere property rights. Property
law in the occupied territories is currently so screwed up that I doubt
it's possible for any rational unbiased person to argue that they are
fair. It would be a monumental job to sort those out, fairly.
Fortunately, neither side seems interested in fairness. If this were a
real issue, the lawyers would probably wind up owning it all anyways.
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klg
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response 55 of 173:
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May 21 21:48 UTC 2002 |
re: " they said that according to a recent poll,
almost 50% of Israelis would favor deporting all of the Palestinians"
And, if I may ask, what percent of the Arab population is in
favor or throwing all the Jews into the sea?
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scott
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response 56 of 173:
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May 21 23:14 UTC 2002 |
Dunno. Do you have the results of a recent poll on that, klg? Or are you
just trying to make some sort of false equivalency?
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klg
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response 57 of 173:
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May 22 00:31 UTC 2002 |
It is simply to try to make people realize the anti-Israel bias
in the prior response.
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lk
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response 58 of 173:
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May 22 00:37 UTC 2002 |
Marcus, what makes you think Israeli Arabs want anything to do with the PA?
In fact, when Israel proposed to swap Arab settlements in Israel for Jewish
settlements in the disputed territories, 85% of the Israeli Arab residents
in question voted against it!
But here is the irony: the very people who are calling for the ethnic
cleansing of Jews from the disputed territories (finishing the job begun
by attacking Arab armies in 1948) are the ones who are pointing a finger at
Jews who advocate the same with regards to the Arab population. Hypocrites!
In the best of all possible worlds, Jews would be able to continue to live
safely in these villages (as guaranteed by the 1947 UN compromise) under
Arab rule. But the reality does not allow this. If it were up to me, I'd
advocate that these territories could be transferred to the Palestinian
Arab state in 25-50 years -- if a warm peace was maintained. (I don't know
if such options were discussed at Camp David, I'll see what I can find out.)
Either way, for now, these regions must remain under Israeli control if only
for the safety of their Jewish inhabitants.
As for polls, it should be noted that the majority of Israelis continue to
support the peace process and the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state.
Peace rallies -- as unheard of in the Arab and Muslim world as free speech
-- continue in Israel.
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mdw
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response 59 of 173:
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May 22 07:07 UTC 2002 |
I rather imagine if you were to take a poll of the rest of the
palestinian arabs outside of Israel, they'd like to live in Israel as
well. Among other things, the Arabs in Israel enjoy a *much* higher
standard of living. Mexicans immigrate to the US for very similar
reasons; today they comprise a significant voting block in several
southern states. The Israelis are probably not so keen on testing their
democracy by allowing a bunch of palestinian arabs move into isarel,
perhaps in numbers sufficient to guarantee them equal or superior
membership in the democractically elected parts of Israel gov't. The
Arabs who are left in Israel, therefore, comprise a carefully selected
minority.
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lk
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response 60 of 173:
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May 22 07:39 UTC 2002 |
I'm similarly sure that Germany doesn't want to "test" their democracy
by allowing a sufficient quantity of Turks to immigrate and become
citizens, thus turning Germany into a Turkish rather than German state.
Go figure, the US (and all other countries) impose limits on immigration.
> The Arabs who are left in Israel... comprimse a carefully selected minority.
How so? Who selected them and when?
But you have me confused. First you suggest that a land swap would be
anathema to Israel and the Jews, yet when informed that Israel actually
suggested it but that its Arab population was opposed, you rationalize
why that was so. Your analysis is correct (I've previously used the
analogy of Hispanics in the US), but what about your previous point?
Should Jews be forced to leave Jewish land because Isreli Arabs want to
stay in Israel?
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slynne
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response 61 of 173:
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May 22 16:08 UTC 2002 |
re#55 While the very real Arab hatred probably does have something to
do with why so many Israelis favor ethnic cleansing of the area, that
doesnt make it right. If someone were to publish a poll that said 40%
of Palestinians would favor moving the Jews out of Israel, I would find
that just as wrong and just as disturbing.
re#58 I dont deny that the safety of any Jews living in Palestinian
controlled land would be in question and certainly it would be an issue
to be addressed. Not handing the settlements over right away is one way
to address the issue (although personally I think 25-50 years is quite
a long time but that is just a quibble). Anyhow, I am sure there are
other ways to address the issue that might be better than that.
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mdw
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response 62 of 173:
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May 23 00:29 UTC 2002 |
Self-selection & natural selection.
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klg
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response 63 of 173:
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May 23 01:52 UTC 2002 |
re: " If someone were to publish a poll that said 40%
of Palestinians would favor moving the Jews out of Israel, I would find
that just as wrong and just as disturbing."
In the wake of 9/11 we've seen published reports that a large majority
of Arabs are anti-American. Is there any reason to believe that
they like Israelis more???
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mdw
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response 64 of 173:
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May 23 06:06 UTC 2002 |
Americans have an ancient tradition of not getting along with Arabs.
Remember the shores of Tripoli?
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lk
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response 65 of 173:
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May 23 06:33 UTC 2002 |
Marcus, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "self-selection &
natural selection". When and how did this "selection" take place?
You mean the Barbary pirates were Arab? (:
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mdw
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response 66 of 173:
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May 23 08:38 UTC 2002 |
Self-selection can be seen right here on grex. Natural selection is
explained in any good book on evolution, and it can also be seen in the
20th century marketplace of technological goods. Both are capable of
altering the properties of a constituent population just as effectively
as the acts of a single conscious external entity, actually more
effectively in most cases.
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slynne
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response 67 of 173:
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May 23 15:51 UTC 2002 |
re: "In the wake of 9/11 we've seen published reports that a large
majority of Arabs are anti-American. Is there any reason to believe
that they like Israelis more???
I dont believe that a large majority of Arabs are anti-American to the
point where they think we should be wiped off the face of the earth. I
think they are anti American policy in the middle east and I think they
have good reasons for their concern. I guess I dont consider criticism
of our foreign policy to be "Anti-American"
But how much "anti-American" sentiment is there really in the Arab
world? Here is a little something from this month's Harper's Index
(quoted from memory so I hope I dont get it wrong):
Percentage of Iranians who felt that the 9/11 attacks were "totally
justifiable": 8
Percentage of Kuwaitis who felt that the 9/11 attacks were "totally
justifiable": 18
Percentage of Americans who felt that the 9/11 attacks were "totally
jusitifiable": 5
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lk
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response 68 of 173:
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May 23 17:41 UTC 2002 |
So what are you saying, Lynne, that 5% of Americans are Kuwaiti or Iranian? (:
Actually, a majority of Kuwaitis polled by Gallup condoned the 9/11 attacks
as "morally justifiable".
Thank you, Marcus, but I am familiar with those terms. I was asking, in this
case, what those forces were. What did they, in your opinion, select for?
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mdw
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response 69 of 173:
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May 23 22:23 UTC 2002 |
The number one thing those forces selected for was probably arabs who
could calmly tolerate a variety of petty and not so petty discrimination
as a minority, ranging from loss of their houses without compensation
(in some cases), to being picked upon in the school yard. There are
likely lots of other factors that would come into play - some may have
been simply "stubborn", or "greedy" (better pay, education, medical
care).
Even here in the US, it's not uncommon to find recent immigrants who are
much more vocally against opening the doors for immigration than people
who have been here for more generations. I've no idea what exactly the
hispanics in california think on a % basis, but I rather doubt they'd
want to be traded to mexico in return for kicking all those american
hotel chains and magnates out of mexico.
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aaron
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response 70 of 173:
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May 24 00:24 UTC 2002 |
re #67: You are trying to argue with somebody who is less interested in
fact than in espousing hatred of Palestinians and Arabs. Good luck.
I think it is safe to say that both Leeron and klg favor ethnic cleansing
when it comes to Palestinians. I have yet to find a proponent of ethnic
cleansing who was not, at heart, a hate-filled bigot and mindless
ideologue.
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klg
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response 71 of 173:
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May 24 01:30 UTC 2002 |
re: "You mean the Barbary pirates were Arab? (:"
Perhaps mdw needs to visit the "why americans stink at geography" item.
re: "I dont believe that a large majority of Arabs are anti-American to the
point where they think we should be wiped off the face of the earth." Well,
that may be your opinion, but, of course, you don't have any evidence.
re: "I think it is safe to say that both Leeron and klg favor ethnic
cleansing when it comes to Palestinians." Then, what you call "thinking" is
highly suspect. I think you, aaron, are just prejudiced against me, at least,
as I have never said such a thing. As a matter of fact, when in Israel I
generally enjoyed the contacts I had with Arabs. It made the country much
more interesting. By the way, aaron, when were you in Israel?
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slynne
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response 72 of 173:
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May 24 01:34 UTC 2002 |
I dont have any evidence that would convince you, klg. I will admit that. I
dont think any evidence would convince you that most Arabs dont want to wipe
Americans off the face of the earth.
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lk
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response 73 of 173:
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May 24 01:58 UTC 2002 |
From Marcus' fantasies expressed in #69, one could think there was a stream
of Arabs who left Israel after the 1948 war thus creating the "selection"
of which he speaks. (What next, that African American blacks were selected,
as if -- aside from Liberia -- they had a choice to return to Africa?)
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klg
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response 74 of 173:
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May 24 02:23 UTC 2002 |
re: " I
dont think any evidence would convince you" Yes. You now see that
I am a raving, irrational fanatic who is unwilling, nay, unable, to
be swayed by the facts.
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