response 52 of 116:

Aug 26 02:44 UTC 2003

I said
Well tod maybe those rednecks don't know thier bible....I do.A "fetus" 
is alive.
 russ said
"So's an ant."

excellent..you admit the "fetus" is alive..therefore to abort it means 
MURDER,
 
You also stated that the greek word for breath is "pneuma". True
While a baby doesn't "breath" in the classic sense it does require 
oxygen for survival. It comes from the mother.
Let me quote some greek.
There are two main words for life in greek. One is bio. That applies to 
the physical being(hence biology). The greek work zoa however is in a 
diffrent context in the biblical sense. It means spiritual life and 
that is something every "fetus" so called has. It is also what Adam 
lost when he ate of the tree of life..not his "bio" life. In fact the 
greek word for death is thanatos. It means "separation".

  An FYI for the bonehead that thinks the bible is a myth. Was Plato a 
myth? Was Socrates? Aristotle? How about Alexander the Great? There is  
more historical documentation for the existance of Jesus Christ than 
any of those figures. PROVE THAT WRONG. I would love a debate on that 
subject.
  I think that deep in the heart of every person lies(or once existed)
the knowledge that God exists. Some poeple harden there heart to the 
point that they are reprobate. I hope you aren't at this point.

response 54 of 116:

Aug 26 12:40 UTC 2003

Re 52:  Thanks for the half-assed lesson in Greek.  Now could you please
actually connect it to your argument, or is it just meant to show you've
graduated from junior high school?

response 56 of 116:

Aug 26 15:50 UTC 2003

Screw religion and screw Roe v. Wade

The decision on whether or not it is legal to kill a fetus stems from the
founding law of this country.  We are garaunteed the "right to life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happines."  Abortion is an attempt to facilitate the
pursuit of happiness of one person by denying all three to another.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that
they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among
these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these
rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from
the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes
destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to
abolish it...

"endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"  Whoever or
whatever the "CREATOR" is, the creator has given these rights to the
individual.

" Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."  Abortion denies these rights
to an individual.

" it is the Right of the People to alter..." which is what we are seeking to
do by overturning Roe v. Wade.

response 58 of 116:

Aug 26 17:34 UTC 2003

Re #56: first, your quote is from the Declaration of Independemce, a
radical advocacy document, of the type in which exaggeration and fervor
would be expected. When the dust settled, they wrote the Constitution,
which sets down our governmental principles and practices. There is NO
blanket and without exception "founding law" of a right to "life, liberty
and the pursuit of happiness"  in the Constitution. What the Constitution
created were governmental bases for those aspirations, but there are
limitations. Many adult citizens of this country are deliberately denied
life, or liberty, or the pursuit of happisness, and I know bru supports
that. 

The Constitution is written for "We the people...": that is, the sentient,
thinking and acting adult citizens. Particular provisions and subsequent
laws and regulations concern all others. An example was slaves, that were
not considered members of "We the people....". They have since been
included, but I doubt that fetuses ever will be, as they are incapable of
assuming the roles of full citizenship, nor would we want them to. 

Bru promotes a narrow and simplistic interpretation of a generalized
notion that was used as an argument against tyranny. It was after that
that a nation was founded. 

response 60 of 116:

Aug 27 03:05 UTC 2003

The stage blade (blunt as can be) wrote:

>excellent..you admit the "fetus" is alive..therefore to abort it means 
>MURDER,

Really, but no.  Put that mind to the grindstone for a while, and maybe
(just maybe) you'll get it sharp enough to cut butter.  If it's warm.

Since you're so dense, an explanation is in order.  "Life" means nothing.
A brain-dead body is also alive, has circulation and metabolism and all
the same signs and types of life as a fetus.  Is it murder to shut off
the air keeping it alive?  Hardly.  Is it murder to cut one up into
component organs?  No, it can be praiseworthy.  Virtuous people volunteer
for the honor of donating their pieces.

Why's it not a problem then?  It's because *nobody's there anymore*
once the brain is gone; you can't murder someone who's already dead.
By the same token, you can't kill a person who has yet to exist.
Vital signs are a prerequisite for personhood, not a synonym.
  
>You also stated that the greek word for breath is "pneuma". True
>While a baby doesn't "breath" in the classic sense it does require 
>oxygen for survival. It comes from the mother.

Precisely.  As long as it doesn't have breath of its own, it has no
soul of its own.  No soul means it cannot be murdered.  Ergo, per
the Bible you're so happy to quote, you're wrong.  (If the Bible is
just myth you might have a chance to rescue your argument.)

response 62 of 116:

Aug 27 22:30 UTC 2003

RE# 54

Here's another "half assed lesson".
 
russ assumed that the gen. verse meant that you don't have life until 
you breath(pneuma). The verse actually means that he was given 
a "spirit". In 90% of the places pneuma is used in scripture you can 
substitute the word "spirit"
 I think that shatters the use of this verse for using breathing as the 
starting point for the begining of life.

as for #59
I like jep's point. The right of the "fetus" (as you call it)was taken 
away by roe v wade.

#re 61
Quite the opposite...it is your baby killing legislature that has done 
this country damage.

response 64 of 116:

Aug 28 03:16 UTC 2003

The stage blade wrote:

>The verse actually means that he was given a "spirit". In 90% of the
>places pneuma is used in scripture you can substitute the word "spirit"

And in most of the places you write liquor you can substitute the
word "spirits".  You keep avoiding the issue:  if the two were not
synonymous to the apostles, why'd they use the same word?  (Heck,
in the KJV "knowledge" means screwing.  I think I "know" your mind...)

>Quite the opposite...it is your baby killing legislature that has done 
>this country damage.

The change was wrought by the judiciary; the federal legislature is
reactionary, trying to return to the status quo ante.  And thanks for
proving my point about your intellect or lack thereof.

response 66 of 116:

Aug 28 19:37 UTC 2003

russ...I will end this absurd notion of yours with one statement

The Holy Spirit is called the "pneumas"

Do you think that means Holy "breath"?

 The action that God took in creating Adam was imparting the "spirit of 
life"
 
You are mislead by the english translation. THAT IS THE POINT.
You cannot use that verse to justify your position on when life begins.
THAT IS THE POINT

"And thanks for
proving my point about your intellect or lack thereof."

WHAT...can't you even READ? You are in  dire need of knowledge.

response 68 of 116:

Aug 28 20:05 UTC 2003

        Back in the 50's, my mom had a pregnancy that ending with
a stillborn.  Never took a breath.  Never named, No funeral, no
burial, no Catholic ceremony.  Just one that did not make it.
        I think the attitude of the church has changed.

response 70 of 116:

Aug 28 20:32 UTC 2003

Stop speaking that language.

response 72 of 116:

Aug 28 22:45 UTC 2003

Yeah.