response 46 of 84:

Apr 3 21:02 UTC 2002

do they reparative therapy for those who want to go from straight to gay?

response 48 of 84:

Apr 3 22:06 UTC 2002

        There probably would be if straights were discriminated against
randomly, beat up, and ostracized from their families for being straight or
bringing home their opposite-sex partner.

response 50 of 84:

Apr 3 22:24 UTC 2002

        They don't get the full membership package, and sometimes suffer from
sarcasm and wit that can only be imagined in straight circles, but they don't
generally get beat up by bisexuophobes, or ostracized from their families.

        Is it as bad in the gay male community as it is in the gay female
community?  A lot of the lesbians I know really are in it for the benefits
package, and not a kinsey 6.

response 52 of 84:

Apr 3 23:54 UTC 2002

resp:47  No, Paul.  Reparative therapy isn't about "fixing" you if you 
are gay.  It is about investigating the "homo-emotional" and "homo-
social" issues behind the desires.  Having done so, and, perhaps, 
discovered problems, seeking to heal the damage caused by the 
problems.  Reparative therapy isn't an attempt to "cure" homo-sexual 
tendencies.  It is, in fact, understood as we begin down the road to 
reparation, that homo-sexual tendencies aren't some kind of disease 
that you can get a shot for and be all better.  Rather, we realize 
within ourselves that homo-sexual tendencies are the "band-aid", if you 
will permit the term, that we placed on our lives following the damage 
we perceived and placed there in an effort to deal with said damage.  
We do not say that "all gays" should participate in reparative 
therapy.  What we do say is, this has helped us and, if you are in the 
same boat we were and unhappy with the idea of same sex attraction 
(SSA), then this may be a solution you could look into.

That said, I feel that, after so much discussion, of which I have been 
a part, however unknowingly, that I ought to take some time here to 
clarify some things.

When Jon and I met, we had a lot of conversations, the result of which 
was a realization in myself that I was in a situation similar to that 
of Jon.  By this, I mean that I also had sexual attraction to both 
genders.  For a while, this was not a bad thing.  Occasionally, when 
Jon and I were together, one of us would spot a particularly nice-
looking specimen of either gender and point it out to the other one of 
us.  After a while, thoough, not to mention a little experimentation, I 
began to feel uncomfortable with it.  I still had the attractions, I 
couldn't deny them or make them disappear, but I was unhappy because of 
them.  

At one point, I remember Jon asking me if I could ever see myself 
taking a lover in addition to my relationship with him (we were engaged 
to be married at the time.)  By now, many of you know about my code of 
honor.  I replied, honestly, that I didn't think I could.  I said, I 
was a one partner person and that any other relationship I had would be 
a distraction for me, in part because of my Attention Deficit Disorder 
(ADD).  I know myself well enough to know that one partner or the other 
would end up neglected and that I was safer staying in a monogamous 
relationship.  

Jon and I had this discussion long ago and I want to share some of the 
more salient points with you all.  I'll admit that the idea of Jon 
taking lovers in addition to his relationship with me hurt deeply.  
Still, I love Jon in a way that I can't completely describe.  I can't 
see myself failing to forgive him if he chose to take a lover, even if 
that decision meant that I was hurt.  I can see that his taking lovers 
might do some damage to my ability to trust him.  The first few times 
he "cruised" for the anonymous encounters he mentioned in resp:0, I 
felt hurt.  However, I cannot honestly say that I would ever want to 
dissolve the relationship based on what many of my "girl-friends" 
(meaning friendly female companions) would define as cheating, in part 
because he has been completely honest with me about it when he knew 
there was a possibility that I might just say, "okay, that's the last 
time.  It's over."  So many ladies do that.  In a very real sense, Jon 
is my dearest friend and I don't think I could have made it through my 
own "repairs" without his help simply because he has been so 
understanding toward the issues underlying my own difficulties 
involving SSA.  

I won't say "Go do this!" like some kind of Used Car Salesman.  What I 
do say, however, is following intense therapy for a pair of incidences 
of sexual abuse that happened to me when I was 10 years old, I have 
noticed a profound healing taking place.  I can hold up my head and say 
that I am happy to be me and happy to be a woman.  I can look at a 
beautiful woman in a bikini and appreciate her innate beauty with only 
a brief thought toward her sexual appeal to me.  

With Jon, I will say that I probably didn't write this very well and, 
with him, I will also say that this has the chance of being 
misinterpreted in so many different ways.  Still, I'm sure you can read 
the emotion behind these posts and understand that these are more 
personal revelations than anything else.  These are something in the 
nature of wonderful news shared with good friends.  

I'm done.  Thank you for listening.

response 54 of 84:

Apr 4 00:26 UTC 2002

        Re #50:

        Well, being ostracized from "the family" is different than being
ostracized from one's family.  Completely.  You may have father or mother
figures in the family - I do, I've been a friend of the family for many many
years - but they're not the same as your parents.

        Re #51:

        I've always been confused when it comes to people having problems with
their attractions.  Even when I'm in a completely committed relationship, I'm
not dead, and I have attractions to other people - I'm about as close to a
Kinsey 0 as I know, so it's members of the opposite sex - but I'd always
thought that people had accepted it as a normal part of being in a
relationship, having attractions you didn't act on.  Heck, that's a part of
not being in a relationship, too, now that I think about it.

response 56 of 84:

Apr 4 00:40 UTC 2002

yea those groups hate me.

response 58 of 84:

Apr 4 03:52 UTC 2002

Reparative derives from "repair." Julie, your speech is so full of
justifications, it saddens me. You refer to homosexuality as a bandaid for
psychosocial problems. I didn't say that Reparation Therapy was aimed at all
gays, but I did say it was people whose thinking is, "I'm gay because I'm
broken. Fix me." That's what you said in a lot more words while disagreeing
with me.

response 60 of 84:

Apr 4 04:04 UTC 2002

Okay, Paul, it's time to leave the prego woman alone.

I don't know about her, but in some aspects, I see my attractions as a 
source of strength-- it is easier for me to be sensitive, gentle, open 
and honest, in some aspects.  I am empathetic to others who are in my 
shoes.  My feelings are good in some ways.

However, it has not been my experience that homosexual relations have 
been good or healthy for me.  It is damaging to my marriage, and it is 
incompatible with my faith.  Some say I should change faiths, and I 
should expect Julie to learn to accept things or maybe she should 
leave.

But Julie is a good woman.  I love my faith.  Putting my sex with men 
to the side-- forever-- is a sacrifice I am willing to make.

response 62 of 84:

Apr 4 08:39 UTC 2002

..umm .. that's .. i have no desire _to sacrifice my individuality_ for that
kind of crap.

and while im hiccupping an ranting and typing like shit...

all the shit i've experienced with women has made me really turned off by the
thought of getting involved with a woman in general. while i'm open and
willing  .. i have to say that the politics surrounding it are not worth it.
i still, however, do not feel as though those 'bad feelings' are in need of
'repair' within myself, nor to conform to any steroetype of lesbianism etc.

i could really rant on the fucked-up-ness of men too .. but i won't, as they
haven't pissed up me off percentage-wise the same way as women, and my -
they're tasty.


..

response 64 of 84:

Apr 4 10:35 UTC 2002

resp:63  I have funny feeling I may seem to have contradicted myself 
somewhere.  

Allow me to clarify a bit more.  "I have these gay feelings because of 
something about me that is broken or not functioning properly.  
Please, help me figure out what it is so that I can fix it."

Hopefully, that is closer.

response 66 of 84:

Apr 4 21:27 UTC 2002

lol.  Be nice, Paul. Thank you very much for the vote of confidence.
Jon, thank you for attempting to defend me.  Gentlemen, I concur with 
Paul in this case.  Just because I'm pregnant doesn't mean I should be 
treated differently.  And Paul, I think you should probably give Jon a 
little credit.  He's going to be a daddy soon and it's his first time.
I think you could stand to be a little nicer to him.  I don't think he 
was acting like Brigham Young.  I think he was acting like a 
protective husband.  

In any case.  Maybe it is time to freeze this item and talk about 
something else, if all we can do is argue.  Lets just agree that we 
disagree and move on.  Okay?

response 68 of 84:

Apr 4 22:41 UTC 2002

#66> Since you asked so nicely, I'll stop picking on Jon. ;} All the same,
I can't resist this, but I'll provide this preface so you KNOW I'm joking:
 
What, Julie? Now I'm supposed to be nice to Jon because HE's pregnant?
Boyoboy, you're just two peas in a pod, aren't you? Special treatment all
around.