response 44 of 95:

Jul 23 17:29 UTC 2002

Ok, it isnt any more insulting than this statement: "This seems to be a 
judgemental squabble built on emotion and condemnation with very little 
attempt to consider other aspects of the situation.  The tone of some 
of these post wavers between superior to bitter and hostile." The 
implications are that anyone who has posted here saying that they think 
is wrong to give up a pet is judgemental (arent we all?), emotional 
(and therefore not logical?) That our posts are bitter, hostile and 
superior (is this how you see *everyone* who expresses an opinion about 
morality?)

I never said that you were kosher with just ditching pets. My question 
was rhetorical. I expected you to answer "no" at which point 
I could present an argument that this particular couple *is* giving up 
a family pet on a whim. I needed to ask that question so I could know 
which way to direct my argument. It wasnt intended to be like the 
famous "do you still beat your wife" question. Same with the emotional 
issues question. I am just wondering. You have shown signs that this 
*might* be something that is an emotional issue for you so I am just 
wondering if that is the case. The reason being that if it IS something 
that is based on some emotional issue, there is no point discussing 
this issue anymore. 

Frankly I am kind of suprised that you are getting all bent out of 
shape about this. It is normal for people to have emotional issues. I 
dont find it insulting to suggest that someone might have emotions. 
Would you rather I suggested you were a cold heartless emotionless 
person? Its kind of funny actually but your reaction has let me know 
that at the very least you have some kind of issue with your emotions.

Part of the whole reason it bugs me that someone would throw out a cat 
like that is because I have an emotional attachment to cats. I see them 
as a member of the family. My emotional issue in this case is very 
relevant. If I didnt think that way about cats and thought about them 
more the way jep does or the way I think about chickens, goats, pigs 
(not raised as pets), etc then it wouldnt bug me that this couple has 
abandoned their cat. 

response 46 of 95:

Jul 23 17:41 UTC 2002

I love the smell of Grex Metadiscussion in the morning...
(Is this post metametadiscussion?)

response 48 of 95:

Jul 23 17:45 UTC 2002

Just to stir up the pot, a selection from some medical and pet sites:
----
There is an old myth that cats can climb into cribs and “suck the air” 
out of babies. While this is generally considered an old wives’ tale, it 
may have a basis in fact. Cats are either cuddly creatures or aloof 
pets, depending on their temperament. Cuddly creatures enjoy snuggling 
up to other cuddly creatures, including babies. Since very young infants 
are incapable of turning their heads or moving their bodies away from 
the cat, the danger of suffocation does exist. Additionally, some babies
may be sensitive to cat hair or dander, both of which will be deposited 
on the sheets when your cat naps. 
----

There are number of dangers associated with pets especially when small 
children are involved.  Infections that can be caused from pets include, 
fungal infections (ringworm), scabies, cat-scratch fever, 
gastrointestinal infections, respiratory infections, and even strep 
throat, just to name a few. However, these infections are rather 
uncommon when compared to the trauma that pets may inflict. 

Any scratch or bite can get infected, so it is important to clean any 
wound very thoroughly.  Cats may tend to be more docile, however, 
because their teeth are more pointed, bites from these animals tend to 
get infected more often. 
----
Many young mothers may be concerned about whether a cat can be a danger 
to the unborn baby...The fact is, there is a danger of contracting 
toxoplasmosis—a parasite that can be transmitted from cat feces.  
Toxoplasmosis can be a more severe illness in people with immune-system 
problems and in young infants, resulting in damage to the brain and 
eyes. In addition, a pregnant woman with toxoplasmosis early in the 
pregnancy can pass the infection to her unborn child, leading to severe 
mental and physical problems in the infant.

response 50 of 95:

Jul 23 18:22 UTC 2002

I'd be happy if the parents saw this discussion, personally.  I'd be happy
to say to their faces everything I've said in it.

Being a new parent doesn't give you a right to be an irrational asshole.

response 52 of 95:

Jul 23 18:33 UTC 2002

It even works on some people, amazingly.

response 54 of 95:

Jul 23 19:17 UTC 2002

Yes, I was wondering if you have an emotional issue about "people 
verbalizing how they feel others *should* act". I asked this because it 
seemed to me that your problem was not that you thought this couple did 
the right thing but that you didnt like that they were being criticized 
even though you agreed that they were in the wrong here. Why dont you 
like that? Is it an emotional response to something else? Does it make 
you angry when people are critical of others? Please note the 
difference between a question and a statement. I did not say that you 
do have an emotional issue here, I am wondering if you do because some 
of your statements have indicated that you *might* have one. If I knew 
that you have one, I would have made a statement rather than asking a 
question. This seems to be a button for you. Why?

You complain that I have overlooked how careful you have been to use 
words like "some" but that isnt the case. I didnt notice *any* 
responses that were as you described. 

I think speculation about what they might do to their kids is valid. It 
is just speculation with a lot of "ifs" thrown in. I still believe that 
anyone who thinks of a pet the way I do (as a member of the family) and 
can still throw it away is a very cold person indeed who probably 
wouldnt be what I would consider a good parent. If they feel that pets 
arent members of the family, I kind of think they shouldnt have pets 
but probably still can be good parents. I dont think that making 
assumptions about this couple is totally wrong for the purposes of our 
discussion. For all practicle purposes, even though this is a real 
couple, this discussion is hypothetical. It isnt really all that unfair 
to take this action and then wonder what it means as far as how they 
will be as parents. 

Basically I am taking an action that I think of as morally wrong and 
then saying that anyone who takes that action would be a bad parent. 
FWIW, you probably do the same thing or at least I hope you do. Would 
you say that a person who abused an animal by beating it would be a 
good parent or do you think it isnt fair to make that assumption 
without understanding the full situation?

response 56 of 95:

Jul 23 21:21 UTC 2002

What would it take for you to think that your cat or your dog were a 
danger to your baby? 

I dont even have kids but if one of my dogs or my cat hurt a baby, I 
would probably have it put to sleep. If one of my dogs bit an older kid 
who was provoking it, I probably wouldnt put the dog to sleep but if it 
were someone else's kid, I would make sure my dog was never in contact 
with that kid again and if it were my kid, we would have a little 
discussion about teasing dogs. 


 

response 58 of 95:

Jul 23 21:47 UTC 2002

I would put my cat to sleep if it made an unprovoked attack. A scratch 
isnt really putting a baby in danger. I guess that wasnt clear when I 
said "hurt a baby" but I meant "attacked a baby" 

response 60 of 95:

Jul 24 04:49 UTC 2002

Re #12:  This sounds more like a power-struggle within the marriage,
and the pregnant wife is throwing her weight around to get rid of the
cat she never liked; the husband is giving in to try to preserve
harmony.  The cat is an innocent victim, collateral damage.

If I had a cat, I would *never* give it up for such ridiculous reasons.
(I would probably not marry someone who wouldn't accept my cat.)  I
grew up with cats, was practically raised by two Siamese, and would
not want any child of mine to miss that experience.

Besides, there's nothing quite like a warm, purring mass in your lap.
(The fact that I get my jollies from stroking their fur and watching
them divert their fine hunting instincts to chasing inedible or even
immaterial "prey" is a related issue... oh, hell, I admit it.  I just
like watching cats have fun, and experiencing the pleasure of another
being.)

response 64 of 95:

Jul 24 14:29 UTC 2002

My cat vomited on me this morning. Bloody ingrate!