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Grex > Coop11 > #47: Banning a site from Grex; a discussion of when to do this | |
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| 25 new of 264 responses total. |
mta
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response 40 of 264:
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Dec 2 15:44 UTC 1998 |
Steve, I don't think anyone is sayiong you did the wrong thing. I'm certainly
not.
What we are saying is that during the whole process you went through of
hundreds of mails and conversations, a heads up to other users that this is
going on would be a kindness to those users who probably have no influence
over either the admin or the hackers. I think you're right that it wouldn't
have much effect on the problem...
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steve
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response 41 of 264:
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Dec 2 15:49 UTC 1998 |
Thanks. Maybe I'm reading things incorrectly. I find myself being
stressed over this more than I thought I would.
Another question: if we don't get any responce from the site, what
do we do? I'm trying to figure out now if any of the accounts that
came in from that site have other access, but I don't think many will.
I don't think we've received a single piece of mail asking why they
can't get in.
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mta
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response 42 of 264:
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Dec 2 16:24 UTC 1998 |
STeve, it's not entirely a bad thing that this tresses you out. If it were
no big deal, we'd be in danger of this becoming a first tier solution which
I'm pretty sure no one wants. But do try to slow down and breathe. ;)
Maybe one solution is to set a time limit, open access back up, and see what
happens. It's quite likely that the problems will start all over again
--then again, it's also possible that the hackers will have wandered off to
harass an accessible site by then.
Either way, we can be prepared with a new "policy" for how to handle this
problem. One that protects Grex while still being as considerate of
legitimate users from that site as is feasible. I would hope that we'll never
need it -- but I wouldn't count on it. ;)
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rcurl
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response 43 of 264:
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Dec 2 16:24 UTC 1998 |
Are the ids from that site identifiable now? Could they all be sent e-mail
explaining (briefly) why the site was banned, and saying that they will
have access again after some date, but if vandalism continues, the ban
will go into effect permanently? Perhaps also explain how they can help
prevent this from happening by asking their administrators to take some
action against vandals. Yes, I know there could be a thousand or so,
but the mail could be sent over several days.
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cmcgee
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response 44 of 264:
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Dec 2 16:57 UTC 1998 |
If these people are like many of our Indian users, I believe that Grex _is_
their email. No way for them to read email until we reopen Grex to them.
I, for one, would be willing to put up with one day of slow Grex (maybe a
Monday when people there might be "trying" Grex again) just to put up an MOTD,
and let them get their email explaining what they need to do with their
administrators in order to solve our problem.
Then, if it happens _even_once_ again, ban the site until the administrators
satisfy staff that the problem is under control.
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rcurl
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response 45 of 264:
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Dec 2 17:18 UTC 1998 |
Good point - it is even easier just to send them all mail *here*.
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aruba
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response 46 of 264:
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Dec 2 17:37 UTC 1998 |
I like Colleen's solution in #44.
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valerie
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response 47 of 264:
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Dec 2 18:07 UTC 1998 |
This response has been erased.
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steve
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response 48 of 264:
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Dec 2 20:08 UTC 1998 |
I just had a conversation with someone (student) from the site; they
came in from lonestar.org and started a talk with me. Unforunately,
their net connection was slow enough that we didn't get very far.
I think they got my explaination of what went on, but I'm not sure.
Still no response from the administrators at the site.
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steve
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response 49 of 264:
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Dec 2 20:12 UTC 1998 |
Rane, I think cmcgee is right. Or, they may have other mail like
hotmail but use Grex as the vehicle to get to it. I'll check on that.
I have a list of all the users.
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richard
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response 50 of 264:
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Dec 2 23:12 UTC 1998 |
The other issue, which needs to be brought up, is that various users
have pressured both grex and mnet for sometime to site block certain
India ISPs (including this one) because Indian users hog the tlenet
er telnet ports and party lines and behave boorishly (particularly
towards female users) The objections to Indian users by others here
and on mnet have had, at times, a frankly racist aspect to them.
Regardless of how and why this site needed to be blocked, there are
certain to be Indian users who would regard this as just the excuse
used by staff to block the site, and that privatetely staff wanted to do
so anyway. They might well consider this an action rooted in racism
toward Indian users.
So ask yourself, if this activity had come from a reputable *american*
ISP of the same size and scale, would you have still blocked the site?
Would you site block U of M or MSU or some large college site? Did the
fact that this site was in India influence your decision?
Steve Andre is obviously no racist, but grex doesnt need the reputation
of being a site that is blocking large numbers of users of a particular
race. That is a stigma like it or not. I just think it looks bad.
I think the block should be lifted. The evil perpetuators should get
nasty letters from staff and have their logins taken away. Sure they can
run newuser again but better to handle this on a case by case basis than
have grex unfairly branded as racist and exclusive.
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richard
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response 51 of 264:
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Dec 2 23:17 UTC 1998 |
also, the grex bylaws say it is the objective of grex to provide an "open
access" computer conferencing system.
I would argue that if Grex denies access to anyone, it cannot by
definition be "open access" Therefore site-blocking any site is in
violation of the bylaws (maybe not the spirit, but the words)
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richard
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response 52 of 264:
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Dec 2 23:27 UTC 1998 |
and since it is not practical for Indian users to dial in, and since
most there do not have the luxury of using various ISPs, there are
many users who are now being literally denied access to grex.
There was no notification of the site block. There are probably
Indian users with email they cant read now and files they cant access.
I know of one Indian user I spoke to some months back in Party. He
uses Grex to communicate with his mother somewhere out in California.
If he uses that ISP, and has no other access to get here, then staff's
action has done him harm.
This shouldnt have been done without advance notification, so users
could make other arrangements if they were to be affected. And it
shouldnt have been done at all if grex is open access.
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mdw
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response 53 of 264:
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Dec 2 23:29 UTC 1998 |
I doubt the site being in india had anything to do with STeve's
decision. Most of the other sites we've blocked have been in north
america, but that probably reflects more on the vandal population at
large, than anything else.
The only way this site being india is a "problem", is that we're
probably dealing with a language (and cultural) barrier on top of
everything else. India is a Really Big place - there is a lot more room
there for Very Different ways of viewing the world, and a *lot* of
native langauges, more than perhaps in any other country in the world.
I think Richard is forgetting that we have an obligation to legitimate
users of grex, as well as vandals. If grex is always labouring under
fork bombs, that is not in anyone's true best interest.
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steve
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response 54 of 264:
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Dec 2 23:58 UTC 1998 |
Richard, I would have blocked *any* site that did what this particular
site did. I do not care if they were of American, Indian, French or
South Afrian origin. The actions were what mattered, not what color
they are. In cyberspace, it is words and actions that count, not what
someone looks like.
"open access" means that we don't raise many barriers to get here,
but that doesn't mean that there aren't any, Richard. For example we
do not hand out root accounts. Does that make us non "open access"?
Please think about what you are saying, Richard: if we have to give
notice before blocking a site because of vandal problems, aren't we
likely going to experience MORE problems during the time before the
block goes into effect?
I'm afraid that on this issue (and is so often the case) you and I
are on completely opposite sides of the issue.
As for anyone interpreting this as a racial issue, I intend on having
something for anyone to read before the block if lifted, to combat this
idea. I was aware that it could be seen that way by some.
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rcurl
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response 55 of 264:
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Dec 3 05:49 UTC 1998 |
Although Richard observed that "the grex bylaws say it is the objective of
grex to provide an "open access" computer conferencing system", he seems
to have confused an objective with an obligation, in his further comments.
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remmers
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response 56 of 264:
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Dec 3 11:17 UTC 1998 |
Misti's resp:40 correctly interpreted what I was saying. Shall we do
what Colleen suggests in resp:44? I would be in favor of that.
Marcus in resp:53 makes reference to other sites that have been blocked.
Could you give some details? How many sites, where located, for what
reasons, for how long? I don't think that users should be kept in the
dark about these kinds of staff actions.
Regardless of whether Richard's point about the site being blocked
because it is Indian has any validity or not, one of my concerns -- as I
mentioned earlier -- is that this is exactly the opinion that the
innocent users from that site might form, in the absence of any warning
or explanation. They might be totally unaware of the vandal problem and
think that they've been blocked because they're Indian. Do we really
want to convey that impression? Lifting the ban for a short period and
posting a message in the MOTD would help correct it.
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steve
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response 57 of 264:
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Dec 3 12:18 UTC 1998 |
No, of course not. We've not gotten any response from the admin
there yet. What should we do--put a large notice in the motd and
open that site up for a day? Send mail to each of the accounts that
have logged in from that site explaining what happened? How long
should the site remain open before closing it back down, or should
we keep it open?
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rcurl
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response 58 of 264:
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Dec 3 16:59 UTC 1998 |
Play it by ear in regard to the reaction (keep us posted). But the note
in the motd and, more important, mail to each account that logs in from
the site, should be done. I'd suggest opening the site for at least
a week, or until it appears the problem is either solved or the problem
remains serious.
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mta
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response 59 of 264:
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Dec 3 18:04 UTC 1998 |
I'd like to see the block lifted as soon as it's feasible, with the
understanding that it will be put back in place at the first sign of serious
trouble.
My reasoning is that there are people, as Ruchard pointed out, who have been
counting on grex for e-mail and communication of other sorts who are in no way
responsible for the hacker activity. I'd like to let them know as soon as
possible what's going on so they can make other arrangemnts if possible or at
least let their contacts know that Grex is no longer a reliable address/contact
point for them.
Mind you, STeve, I think you did exactly the right thing -- but we seem to
have a pretty universal consensus about how to deal with this sort of situation
in the future and I'd like to implement that in this case, too, as far as we
can.
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janc
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response 60 of 264:
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Dec 3 18:20 UTC 1998 |
I support the idea of doing at least a short re-open to inform people
there of what is going on. Sending mail to some of the users would be
good.
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krj
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response 61 of 264:
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Dec 3 19:02 UTC 1998 |
Proposed motd draft:
To users from XXXX University:
From (date) to (date), Grex has blocked access from your site
due to your administrators' refusal to cooperate with Grex after
users from your site have attacked our system. If this problem
recurs, the site ban will be re-imposed for a lengthy period.
Users from this site should encourage site administrators to contact
Grex staff at (address). Users from this site who depend on Grex
for e-mail need to prepare to find another provider, in case
your site continues to refuse cooperation.
Putting this into the motd gets it some circulation at other sites
in India, and maybe we can shame the offending site into taking some
action, as well as explaining our action to all Indian users.
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dpc
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response 62 of 264:
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Dec 3 19:13 UTC 1998 |
A good draft, krj!
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aruba
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response 63 of 264:
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Dec 3 19:21 UTC 1998 |
I would like to see some language in there to the effect that the Grex staff
takes this action very reluctantly and regretfully. I also think it's a bit
long for an MOTD message, but not for an e-mail sent to all the users from the
site.
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steve
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response 64 of 264:
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Dec 3 19:41 UTC 1998 |
Ken, excellent start. I can add a little more, but what you did is a
very good starting point.
OK, send this to all the accounts from this site with a short blurb in
the motd, or this message (once finished) in the motd?
I think my preference would be to send it to all the users, becuase
there are a LOT of people who are going to make a bee-line to their
mail, and thus we have a chance of significant numbers of people reading
this.
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