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Grex > Agora47 > #175: shopping for a car, this time because I have to | |
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| 25 new of 120 responses total. |
mary
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response 40 of 120:
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Nov 18 12:57 UTC 2003 |
Yep, I recognize a fellow negotiations warrior up there. ;-)
Go in fully armed with information, check out the incentives,
know how long the car has been on the dealers lot and why this
is important. Time it for the end of the month. Don't look
anxious to own the car. Be firm and willing to walk away. Don't
muddy up the issues by throwing a trade in into the deal.
I've never let a deal get hostile but it's gotten tense.
What a shame you need these skills to get a fair price.
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russ
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response 41 of 120:
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Nov 18 13:57 UTC 2003 |
(Re #25: Do the calculations yourself and see. If you had any
feel for numbers you'd already know.)
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keesan
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response 42 of 120:
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Nov 18 14:04 UTC 2003 |
Is this a good time of year to get a discount on a 2003 car?
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gull
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response 43 of 120:
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Nov 18 14:42 UTC 2003 |
Re #28: I've had a couple nibbles, but no strong interest. I'd be
willing to cut a deal on it. It's a 2-door, though, so it may not be
ideal for someone with a kid. It's also manual shift; I don't know how
you feel about that.
If you're interested, email me. I'll let you know the maintenance
issues I know of with it. (There are only a couple.)
Re #31: Why do GM cars all have that old lady smell after a few years?
A friend of mine used to have an '87 Buick Somerset. It was a
surprisingly competent car. By the time I rode in it it had over
100,000 miles on it with minimal maintenance. It tended to backfire
through the intake under heavy throttle, and sometimes wouldn't restart
for a couple hours if you turned it off with the engine hot. But other
than that it ran well and gave about 30 mpg until someone rear-ended it
on I-5 and totalled it.
On the other hand, my uncle's mid-80's Cavilier, with good maintenance,
seized up at about 80,000 miles. GM cars are sorta potluck that way.
Re #38: That plastic air dam is a big problem on Saturns around here.
It tends to get ripped off the first time you hit one of those ice
chunks that fall off semi trucks. I hope they fixed it in later models.
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gelinas
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response 44 of 120:
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Nov 18 15:48 UTC 2003 |
Ah. I see now:
} = $6500 / ( 1/280 gallons/mile * $2/gallon )
and
} = $1800 / (.015 gallon/mile * $2/gallon)
differ by at least one omitted step. 280 gallons/mile is .0035 gallon/mile .
And yes, it makes sense that a difference of 5 miles per gallon would
take longer to make up than a difference of 15 miles per gallon.
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jep
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response 45 of 120:
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Nov 18 17:23 UTC 2003 |
I am not a good negotiator, so examples such as yours, Steve, are very
helpful to me. Consumer Reports has an example or two on their WWW
site as well.
The last time I bought a car from a dealer, it was a used car, and I
paid what they asked for, then let them pile on whatever garbage they
wanted, then talked to someone after I'd committed myself and found out
I'd overpaid by a bunch.
While I was married, I let my wife, who likes cars, do the car buying.
There's a market out there for car negotiator counselors who get great
deals for people like me in exchange for a portion of the money they
save. I suppose anyone who's good at that sort of thing and wants to
do it professionally sells cars for dealers.
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remmers
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response 46 of 120:
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Nov 18 17:30 UTC 2003 |
(I know someone who'd make a GREAT professional car negotiator
counselor if she ever decided she was interested... ;-)
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jep
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response 47 of 120:
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Nov 19 03:02 UTC 2003 |
Apparently my brother who works for Saturn thinks the Ion has improved
enough he considered buying one. He works nights but I sent him an e-
mail asking him for his thoughts. Maybe he'll answer.
Here's why people buy Saturns, I guess:
-----------------------------------------------------------
If you aren't completely satisfied with your new Saturn vehicle,
you'll have 30 days or 1,500 miles of delivery, whichever comes first,
to exchange it for another 2004 Saturn vehicle.
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There is also the "GM 24 hour test drive" which I feel sure was
invented by Saturn. Go to this site and then select "Program
restrictions". It's really pretty impressive:
(combine these into one link)
http://www.saturn.com/saturn/financialtools/regionaloffers
/featured/sleep_on_it.jsp?nav=2200
If I buy a Saturn, I'll have to go to Plymouth or Toledo, but that
should not be so bad. When I was married we bought a minivan in
Farmington Hills; the distance didn't present any problems for us.
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mynxcat
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response 48 of 120:
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Nov 19 16:04 UTC 2003 |
The reason 2 people have given me for buying a Saturn is because the
price at the dealer is fixed. There's no haggling like with other
dealers, and so they don't leave with a car and wonder if they could
have got it cheaper
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twenex
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response 49 of 120:
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Nov 19 17:22 UTC 2003 |
A lot of British car companies (e.g. Vauxhall, who made the Cavalier over
here) have been taken over by GM, but I've never herard of Saturn. Anyone know
if they have an equivalent in the UK?)
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jep
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response 50 of 120:
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Nov 19 18:00 UTC 2003 |
Saturns are built in Tennessee, and are sold only in the US and Canada
as far as I know. They're usually rated by magazines as pretty
ordinary cars, but their customer satisfaction scores are high because
of their no-haggle pricing and because they really try to make people
feel happy. People go to Tennessee to tour the Saturn factory, and
there's a Saturn-owners "reunion" every year.
They used to use a Japanese style of management. When my brother hired
in, he had to interview with the people he would be working with, and
get their buy-in to be hired, for example. There was not much division
between management and line workers. That's gone now; Saturn is owned
by GM after all, and that's not the GM way. But I guess it was fun
while it lasted.
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twenex
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response 51 of 120:
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Nov 19 18:44 UTC 2003 |
Heh. Thanks.
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russ
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response 52 of 120:
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Nov 19 23:37 UTC 2003 |
Re #44: Even a difference of 5 MPG takes more or less time to
make up, depending where it is.
The problem is that fuel consumption is the inverse of miles per
gallon, and people have a poor feel for inverses. Put it this
way: making one vehicle improve from 20 MPG (0.05 gallon/mile)
to 40 MPG (0.025 gallon/mile) saves twice as much fuel as
taking an 80 MPG (0.0125 gallon/mile) vehicle and making it
run on no fuel at all.
The savings due to going from 25 MPG to 40 MPG is not 3 times as
much as the savings due to going from 35 MPG to 40 MPG, it is
more like 4.5 times as much; the difference between 20 MPG and
40 MPG is seven times as much as that between 35 MPG and 40 MPG.
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jep
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response 53 of 120:
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Nov 21 03:16 UTC 2003 |
My brother said the Saturns are being *much* better built these days.
He said he wouldn't hesitate to buy one if he were looking for a car
in that class.
However, I'd been thinking along different lines, and have picked the
Pontiac Sunfire. I ordered one this evening, and should get it in a
few days.
The incentives for GM cars seem to me really amazing. Counting the
employee/family pricing, I'll be paying right around 2/3 of MSRP.
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scg
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response 54 of 120:
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Nov 21 06:23 UTC 2003 |
Congratulations, jep!
Regarding the recommendations earlier in this item, and over and over again
in Consumer Reports, to know all about the dealer's costs to get the car and
refuse to pay more than some set amount over that, I'm not convinced. Partly
this is because any formula for that sort of negotiation I've seen would have
resulted in me insisting on a price significantly more than I paid for my new
car, and partly this is because it doesn't seem to make much business sense.
If the supply/demand equation for a given car (or any product) is such that
the dealer can sell every one they get at a large profit, they're not going
to accept offers that don't give them that profit margin. If they can't sell
something for what they paid for it but they would like to get some of that
money back, they'll cut their losses and sell it for less.
What I'd suggest instead in negotiating car prices (from what little
experience I have at it) is to treat it the same as negotiating anything else
involving large amounts of money -- real estate, telecommunications capacity,
employment terms and sallary:
- If at all possible, don't make your opening offer until you've heard
theirs. You don't want to end up asking for a worse deal than they would
have just given you. If they ask you to go first, claim ignorance: "I'm
just starting to look. I'm going to get a few more offers before deciding,
but you know the market better than I do. Tell me what you think is fair."
If they refuse to play that game, and won't go first, give them a number
you know to be way out in left field. This generally forces them to
counter with something. If they instead try to end the conversation, you
can respond with, "ok, if that won't work, tell me what will." But then,
stick to, or close to, your ridiculously low number. You'll have to go
up at some point, most likely, but see how low you can get them to go
first. They did, after all, ask you to come up with a number.
- You've said you were going to get other offers as well. Do it. Get as
many other offers as you reasonably can. Tell any but the lowest that
they're too high, and see if they respond by coming down on their own.
Negotiate down from the lowest, making it clear that you're still talking
to the others and aren't ready to buy that day. Also, indicate with some
hesitation that even the lowest bid might be high enough that the deal
won't work. Never say it defnitely won't -- you lose credibility if you
later end up taking it -- but insist that it will be difficult and that
you need some time think it over. When you get to a point where you can
get up and leave, saying you aren't sure if it's going to work, and they
don't come after you, you've probably gotten them down as low as you're
going to get them on your own.
- Once you're pretty sure you've negotiated a good deal, you're at the point
of being ready to go to the competition and name your own price, probably
a few hundred lower than the offer you're about to accept. If the
competing dealer accepts your offer, you're probably at the point where
you should take it -- you're not going to get them down lower than what
you've already offered them without some significant work. But at that
point it might be worth calling another dealer and offering even less, to
see what happens. If the other dealers refuse your offers, thank them for
their time and take the deal you've already negotiated. That's a good
indication that you really have done well in the negotiating process.
On a slightly different note, I notice on Saturn's website that while their
dealers aren't supposed to negotiate on price, the dealers do get to set
their own prices. This presumably means that even if for some reason you
were to buy a Saturn, it would still be worth doing a fair amount of shoping
around for the best price. I wonder if they really just tell you to go away
if the dealer in the next town turns out to have a lower price.
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aruba
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response 55 of 120:
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Nov 21 15:22 UTC 2003 |
Congrats, jep! And thanks, Steve, for the tutorial.
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keesan
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response 56 of 120:
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Nov 21 17:31 UTC 2003 |
Jim never negotiates on his cars. He currently owns two that were given to
him by friends. Oddly enough, he fixed chimneys (free) for both of them, and
plumbing, and their other cars....
Why buy a used car from a dealership rather than from the owner?
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rcurl
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response 57 of 120:
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Nov 21 18:18 UTC 2003 |
I doubt that Jim's method of getting cars is a practical option for
most people. I also doubt, however, that it produces exceedingly *reliable*
cars.
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scott
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response 58 of 120:
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Nov 21 18:34 UTC 2003 |
Re 56: If the car dealer has a used car you want to buy, you just might end
up buying it there. Actually new-car dealers do get a fair number of used
cars, either trade-ins or previously leased cars and such. Lots of late-model
cars.
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cmcgee
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response 59 of 120:
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Nov 21 21:46 UTC 2003 |
It appears that Saturns are not going to be produced much longer.
Slow-selling was the excuse as I recall.
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keesan
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response 60 of 120:
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Nov 22 00:11 UTC 2003 |
BOth cards given to Jim were taken care of well by their original owners.
One of them has a hole in the floor in front of the passenger seat but works
fine otherwise and he can patch it. They are probably more reliable than
something purchased from a dealer who does not know the history.
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bru
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response 61 of 120:
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Nov 22 04:12 UTC 2003 |
A car with a hole (rust) thru the floor boards is very unsafe. The engine
may run, but I can think of any number of safety problems.
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keesan
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response 62 of 120:
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Nov 22 15:18 UTC 2003 |
He is going to rivet a sheet of stainless steel over the hole some year when
the other car stops working, but that car has only about 160,000 miles on it
and we usually only drive it twice a year. I could sit in back.
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jep
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response 63 of 120:
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Nov 22 16:38 UTC 2003 |
I haven't heard anything about Saturn being shut down. Oldsmobile is
being discontinued, though. The last Oldsmobiles are scheduled to be
made in May, 2004.
My father worked for Oldsmobile (Fisher Body) in Lansing until Fisher
Body became BOC.
If there were any benefit for me in buying an Olds, I would have
considered it. There's not, though. They don't come with a manual
transmission, which I wanted. I don't care about a bigger engine. I
would have paid about $8000 more to have an Olds label on the front,
and it wouldn't have been what I wanted.
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gull
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response 64 of 120:
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Nov 25 17:24 UTC 2003 |
My limited experience with buying used cars from car dealers has not
been good. They seem *very* reluctant to negotiate price on used cars,
even when their asking price is significantly higher than Blue Book.
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