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| Author |
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| 25 new of 65 responses total. |
scott
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response 4 of 65:
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Jan 20 15:03 UTC 2000 |
The problem with fusion is often the glaring lack of structure. "Hey, this
groove sounds great, let's just do it with endless solos for about 15
minutes". Bleah.
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orinoco
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response 5 of 65:
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Jan 20 19:58 UTC 2000 |
"Sanctuary," on Bitches' Brew, is a pretty strong argument that electric piano
can sound good and not just trendy -- and also, for that matter, that fusion
doesn't have to be formless. But yeah, for the most part I'll agree with
both. (Although, for that matter, the keyboards get on my nerves in a lot
of other 60s and 70s music too...in my opinion, the one flaw in Abbey Road
is that damn synth in "Because")
Yeah, Chick Corea has gone acoustic, sometime in the 80s. (I think he even
called his group something like "The Acoustic Band" at one point, to make sure
we all noticed.
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krj
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response 6 of 65:
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Jan 20 19:59 UTC 2000 |
google.com quickly reveals that Jamie Janover is associated with the band
String Cheese Incident and you can get the cd "Realms" at
www.stringcheeseincident.com
End of digression.
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scott
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response 7 of 65:
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Jan 20 21:48 UTC 2000 |
Chick Corea has done both acoustic and electric pretty much through his whole
career. For a really cool acoustic album, try "Three Quartets". Piano, with
Steve Gadd on drums, Eddie Gomez on bass, and Michael Brecker on sax. The
only jazz album I ever bought!
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oddie
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response 8 of 65:
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Jan 22 04:02 UTC 2000 |
resp:2 -- Orinoco, did you have any piano playing experience before taking
up jazz lessons, or are you learning to play the instrument at the same time
as you learn to play the music? And does your teacher teach improvisational
skills or let you 'evolve' them on your own? I think my clarinet- playing
friend Russell initially started out with a jazz teacher who had him
do a lot of free, unstructured improvisation. I suppose that at the very
least that must help you "loosen up" and be more spontaneous.
resp:4 (formlessness of fusion) -- yes, there's some truth in that too,
though if the solos are interesting it doesn't really bother me. It's not
unique to fusion, though-John Coltrane's modal stuff with McCoy Tyner
(_My Favorite Things_ &c) also has a repetitive accompaniment on piano
(though when done on piano it is called a "vamp" rather than a "riff", dunno
why...) and I love those recordings. Also on Ruben Gonzales' self-titled
cd he often plays exactly the same riff/chord over and over and over again
under a percussion solo, and that *does* bother me because I never find
drum/percussion solos that go on for more than a chorus very interesting.
(which isn't to say that I dislike the cd as a whole, because it does have
some great piano playing on it-especially the darkly beautiful last track,
entirely solo)
resp:7 (think it was #7) -- oh goody, another cd to look out for... :)
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orinoco
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response 9 of 65:
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Jan 22 05:55 UTC 2000 |
I'd done classical piano on and off for years, and some classical theory.
Mostly right now, my current teacher is doing theory and chord voicings.
She's also a classical pianist who turned to jazz, so she tends to take a very
classical-ish approach -- "here's a bunch of things that sound good; practice
them so you can play them when you need to" rather than "oh, just play some
stuff and see what sounds good." I'mm liking it. It would probably drive
some people crazy.
You?
About the monotonous fusion thing.... It occurs to me that the beat that gets
dull the fastest, for me at least, is the straight 4/4 funk beat that a lot
of fusion is written in. I tend to have a lot more patience for swing (which
can be even more repetetive, especially with only one or two chords) or for
weird beats (a la Mahavishnu Orchestra). I'd guess that's because there's
more you can _do_ with swing or weird beats: all sorts of ways you can lean
on the rhythm one way or another, or subdivide things up funny, or whatever.
Given that, I'm a little mystified that most dance music, where all you've
got is the beat over and over and over and over and over and over and over
again, is based off of the more boring sort of rhythm. Maybe that's why most
techno sucks....
La de da...don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud. <wanders off>
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oddie
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response 10 of 65:
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Jan 25 04:56 UTC 2000 |
I've been playing classical piano more or less nonstop for nine or ten years
now and have sort of been thrown headfirst into trying to play jazz by
Russell, who is sort of trying to put his own band together...he has me and
a drummer but wants to find a bassist. So, that's why I am having something
of a difficult time of it :) My clarinet teacher told me about a great
jazz piano teacher (also coincidentally the father of one of my friends at
school) and said she would put in a good word for me if I ever wanted to
have lessons with him. But, two things-I would have to pay for it myself,
and my classical piano teacher probably wouldn't be very pleased about my
taking lessons from another person at the same time. The next time i'm at
the library I might check to see if they have anything remotely useful-looking
on the subject.
It occurs to me that it would be useful to know a bunch of "things that sound
good over this-or-that chord" for soloing, just so that you would have
something to build on or something to fall back on...
What's Mahavishnu Orchestra?
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orinoco
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response 11 of 65:
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Jan 25 21:43 UTC 2000 |
Mahavishnu Orchestra was a fusion band, violin-keyboard-guitar-bass-drums,
who got very into odd rhythms and such. I have no sense of jazz history, so
I can't really tell you much more than that. AFAIK, their best-known member
now is John McLaughlin, whose solo stuff I absolutely _loathe,_ but playing
with them he sounds pretty good.
Don't assume your piano teacher doesn't want you studying with someone else.
Some teachers won't like the idea at all, of course, but I've even had
teachers who've _encouraged_ me to study with other people. Can't hurt to
ask.
If you're looking for books, I'd reccomend "The Jazz Piano Book" by Mark
Levine. The reccomendation comes via my current teacher, who suggested it
after I complained that I couldn't find any books on the subject that weren't
either dumbed-down or incomprehensible. Then again, I'm hardly an expert on
the subject, so the fact hat it's the least evil book I've seen doesn't mean
much.
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oddie
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response 12 of 65:
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Jan 26 04:37 UTC 2000 |
Thanks, I will look for that book. Also I'll ask Russell if he has any
Mahavishnu Orchestra lps--his dad has a *huge* collection of both rock and
jazz on vinyl, filling up two walls of the basement and one upstairs too.
The _Buena Vista Social Club_ cd arrived today! Most of the tracks are very
beautiful--there were only a couple I didn't like. Two or three are listed
as "influencia americana," and are a wonderfully fresh blend of Cuban and
ragtime/early jazz styles. It's interesting to realize that American popular
music, which (especially today with 'world music') borrows so much from
the music of foreign cultures has also itself been 'borrowed' and reworked
by those same cultures.
The guitar playing on the album (most of the tracks are guitar-based) is very
precise and lovely to listen to, and it's cool to hear these traditional forms
accented by the more modern sounds of Ry Cooder's electric guitars.
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mcnally
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response 13 of 65:
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Jan 26 05:03 UTC 2000 |
One of the fascinating things about early ska music (from Jamaica during
the early 60's) is how clearly you can hear the influence of American R&B
and yet still have a distinctive and new Jamaican sound.. The process of
American popular music influencing the development of new sounds in the
Caribbean and Latin America has been going on for quite some time now..
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jor
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response 14 of 65:
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Jan 27 21:05 UTC 2000 |
nice to see Mahavishnu discussed
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oddie
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response 15 of 65:
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Jan 28 04:49 UTC 2000 |
This is a bit of a diversion, but what is ska? (I hear people talk about it
at school but have very little idea what it sounds like...) How is it similar
to and different from reggae?
Columbia Houses's big "megalog" that came this week lists two Mahavishnu
albums, _Birds of Fire_ and _Inner Mounting Flame_ (there's also an album
of previously unreleased cuts called _The Lost Trident Sessions_ but I
reckon it would be better to start off with a more well-known album).
Which of these would you Mahavishnu fans recommend? Is either considerably
better than the other?
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lumen
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response 16 of 65:
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Jan 28 05:34 UTC 2000 |
what would you suggest to someone who's never really played jazz?
I've thought about getting a book I have heard of that addresses jazz
comp for the classical guitar (thru a private Net publisher), and one of
my guitar teacher suggested I listen to Charlie (?) Parker as he was a
Segovia student (I'll have to ask again, make sure I *did* get the right
name..)
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orinoco
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response 17 of 65:
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Jan 28 06:03 UTC 2000 |
Charlie Parker played saxophone. A web search found a jazz guitarist named
Charlie Byrd who _did_ study with Segovia. Just to make matters more
complicated, Charlie Parker's nickname was Bird.
Re#15: I like "Birds of Fire" better; there are a few tracks on "Inner
Mounting Flame" that just get on my nerves. But both are good, IMO.
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mcnally
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response 18 of 65:
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Jan 28 07:35 UTC 2000 |
re #15: depends on what sort of ska they're talking about.. what's
currently sold as ska bears only a token resemblance to the classic
ska of early-to-mid-60s Jamaica..
I think we've probably got a ska item around here somewhere -- ask
your question there and I'll write a bit.. I don't want to hijack
this discussion just as it's getting going, though, I just pointed
out the American R&B influence on the early ska pioneers as another
example of American popular music influencing the musical development
of a neighboring nation.
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goose
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response 19 of 65:
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Jan 28 20:21 UTC 2000 |
Yeah, pump some life into the ska item....
As far as jazz, the 40's to 60's bop and hard bop are the things I dig, as
well as 'free' jazz.
Hank Mobley, Curtis Fuller, Lee Morgan, just a few of my faves.
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oddie
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response 20 of 65:
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Jan 29 03:46 UTC 2000 |
Free jazz... I got out Ornette Coleman's _The Shape of Jazz to Come_ (I think
that's the title) from the library a year or so ago, and it didn't really
appeal to me then. But I should probably listen to it again because sometimes
I pick up a cd some time after first listening to it and find that I like it
much more the second time around.
(This has happened to me twice, once with Bud Powell and once with
Kronos Quartet--who, incidentally, recorded an awesome cover of Coleman's
"Lonely Woman" on _White Man Sleeps_)
Coltrane's idea of "sheets of sound" was influenced to some degree by Free
jazz, wasn't it? There's a cool cd called _Thelonious Monk and John Coltrane_
on which he uses this style of playing a lot-it's interesting to hear the
contrast between the solid sounds of Monk's piano and the swift, flowing lines
on the sax.
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goose
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response 21 of 65:
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Jan 29 07:27 UTC 2000 |
Yeah, Shape of Jazz to Come is a great disc in my opinion. I'm also into
earlier Sun Ra, late 50's early 60's..the later stuff I haven't yet been
able to get into.
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oddie
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response 22 of 65:
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Feb 2 04:44 UTC 2000 |
More on the _Buena Vista Social Club_ disc: I read the customer reviews of
this album on Amazon, and it seems like about a third (maybe more) of the
reviewers--even some of those who liked the disc as a whole--were greatly
annoyed by Ry Cooder's slide guitar playing. Among the nicer comments were
"it just isn't Cuban," "gives it an inappropriate TexMex flavor," etc.
It is indisputable that without the slide guitar it would be a more
"authentic" album, but putting that aside I don't know whether or not it
would be better musically. As I said above, I rather like the contrast in
sound "textures"--the title track is particularly cool-sounding with the
slide guitar soft and very high, sounding rather like a violin. If the
liner notes are to be believed, Compay Segundo was "especially delighted"
with Cooder's two-chorus guitar solo on one other track, and thought that
it would have won the "enthusiastic approval" of the composer.
Surely *someone* else here has heard the disc and wants to comment on it??
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oddie
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response 23 of 65:
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Feb 7 05:03 UTC 2000 |
<getting discouraged by lack of responses, grumble grumble grouch grouch>
Two CDs out from the library at the moment: Bill Evans, _Alone (again)_ and
Ornette Coleman & Prime Time, _Virgin Beauty_. The Bill Evans is the first
solo Evans album I've heard, so now I understand why a lot of people call
his style "impressionist". Actually, if I just have it playing while I'm
doing something else for some reason it rather annoys me, but if I
*listen* to it I can hear its gorgeous complexity..the last track,
_People_ (?) sometimes sounds almost like Chopin.
The Ornette Coleman C was made in the '80s I think, so it is more fusion than
free jazz. I don't know what the instrumentation is (except that Jerry Garcia
plays guitar on three tracks, which is cool) but it sounds like the percussion
track is a drum machine. If you have a violent allergic reaction to drum
machines, you probably won't like it. But otherwise it has some pretty cool
tracks on it, most of which are just weird-sounding and off-key enough to not
become sugary. I especially liked the background strings in the ballad-like
title track (is it Ornette himself playing violin??). Next week I think I'll
return this one and listen again to one of his earlier CDs.
On Saturday I went over to Russell's house and for the first time played a
piano solo that sounded semi-decent -- I didn't choke or forget the chord
changes or otherwise screw up, so I felt pretty good about that.
Three questions:
1) what is "harmolodics"? (this is said to have something to do with the
Coleman CD but the liner notes are missing so I can't tell)
2) what is the form of an 8-bar blues? (I only know twelve bar)
3) what is "acid jazz"?
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orinoco
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response 24 of 65:
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Feb 7 07:42 UTC 2000 |
The first two are terms that I've heard tossed around, but I don't understand
either of them. I think "harmolodics" was a word that Coleman made up to
explain some idea of his, but I'm not sure. Ornette Coleman has never
made much sense to me.
Of course, the last time I listened to any of his stuff, I was listening
to a lot less jazz in general. Maybe I should give him another try
sometime.
Acid Jazz, IIRC, is not so much jazz as it is a sort of electronic music with
a little jazz influence. Actually, I'm not too sure about it either.
Yay decent solo! I'm still at the point of endless scales and chord
voicings and not much more. Quite frustrating, actually: it's just
free-form enough to be difficult and brain-stretching and make me long for
explicit notation, but not free-form enough to sound like an actual solo.
I know it's stuff I need to learn, but still....
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carson
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response 25 of 65:
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Feb 9 15:08 UTC 2000 |
(not directly related to jazz, but...)
(...it sounds like I'll have an on-air slot at WNMU-Marquette soon,
which would include "Listener's Choice Jazz" on Saturday nights. the
station broadcasts at 100,000 Watts, and covers the entire Upper
Peninsula [and part of Wisconsin], but I don't believe it's broadcasting
in RealAudio yet.)
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oddie
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response 26 of 65:
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Feb 12 04:44 UTC 2000 |
Right at the moment I am listening to Ornette Coleman's _Free Jazz: A
Collective Improvisation_, which I got out from the library after returning
Bill Evans and the other Coleman album (some of the songs on which had started
to get on my nerves after repeated listenings...). This is the album with
the double quartet (sax/trumpet/bass/drums on the left, bass clarinet/trumpet/
bass/drums on the right) and I think that is one thing that makes it easier
to listen to than the _Shape of Jazz to Come_ record -- don't know why
exactly; it is something to do with having a "richer" sound. And the solos
really *are* melodic, not just random notes; sometimes you can hear the
influence of more traditional jazz forms on Coleman (as a teenager he played
saxophone in touring R&B bands in Texas). There is one part which has already
made an immediate emotional impression on me, and that is the bass solo near
the end.
So, I haven't completely fallen in love with it yet, but it's definitely
something I want to listen to a lot more...
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krj
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response 27 of 65:
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Feb 14 01:58 UTC 2000 |
Going back a ways: Charlie Byrd was the jazz guitarist who died recently.
He was based in the Washington DC area, so I was exposed to a fair bit
of his stuff when I was growing up. My Dad had a few of Byrd's LPs, and
Byrd came and played for us in school once. In more recent years he had
a regular gig at the King of France Tavern in Annapolis, not far from my
parents, and I'd meant to try to get there but never did.
The only other jazz guitarists who leap to mind, for lumen to investigate,
are Wes Montgomery and Charlie Christian. (Wasn't Charlie Christian
in the Ellington band? Or am I hopelessly confused?) They both
played mostly electric, I think, though in Christian's case it would
have been a fairly primitive electric.
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orinoco
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response 28 of 65:
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Feb 14 03:04 UTC 2000 |
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/hansen/Charlie/ has a Charlie Christian bio.
Sez he played for Benny Goodman, but it doesn't mention Ellington.
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