response 39 of 94:

Dec 9 16:59 UTC 1996

Another question for board candidates:

   Do you think it would be good for Grex to seek 501(c)3 tax-exempt
   status?

response 41 of 94:

Dec 9 22:44 UTC 1996

I liked question in resp:39. I would encourage candidates to support the 
prospect of getting 501(c)(3). I have offered a reward to Grex of $100 
as soon as I can deduct it from my taxes. I am sure others will donate 
more if it were tax-deductible.

I think that the question in resp:40 needs clarification. I doubt that 
the board will ever feel the need to worry about that, in any case.

response 43 of 94:

Dec 10 00:10 UTC 1996

Before we ever applied for 501(c)3 status we'd have to be
very clear as to our mission and goals.  A whole lot
clearer than we've been.  We'd need to find someone
willing to do follow through on the formidable amount
of paperwork involved.  Grex would also need to re-incorporate
as we're well passed the deadline for application under
our present status.  Also, I'm not so sure we really aren't
more of a non-profit social club than a charitable 
organization.  Certainly we should get expert opinion
before deciding to try for (c)3.

There may be a day when 501(c)3 would bring
us more joy than grief.  But I doubt it.

response 45 of 94:

Dec 10 03:53 UTC 1996

I agree with Mary on 501(c)3, pretty much.

re 40:
        The question is interesting in that Richard pretty much fails to
understand the nature of the web, while at the same time raising a good point.
The web makes a good interface for a number of things, including conferencing.
BackTalk is wonderful, and I certainly want to see it continue to be offered.
Since it is fully PicoSpan compatible, though, we don't need to make the
choice Richard wants us to make about whether it should be the primary
interface.  If we continue to give users a choice, they can choose whichever
one they prefer.  I think I'll stick with PicoSpan.  His party question is
somewhat different, in that from a technical standpoint a real time
conversation like party is a very different sort of thing than PicoSpan style
conferencing.  A web intercface would be doable, if a bit tricky, but party
is the sort of thing that telnet handles really well.  If somebody wants to
write a web interface to party we might as well make it available, but it's
not anything I'm going to get overly excited about.

Richard's other questions, about file maintainance and homepage editing via
the web really are beyond the scope of what the web currently supports, or
even should support.  Having some sort of CGI or Java program for editing web
pages on Grex through a web browser would be pretty pointless.  There are a
lot of offline web page editors (even some, such as Netscape Navigator Gold,
that are integrated with web browsers) which are well suited to this sort of
task, while at the same time being much simpler to write and to use, and
keeping the processing on the user's own computer, where it doesn't slow Grex
down.  With all the products that are out there doing a fine job of being
graphical web page editors, there would be no point in reinventing the wheel,
doing something "web based" that wouldn't work as well.

Richard's web based file maintenance question is also odd.  I think BackTalk
already supports the ability to edit .plan files over the web, but beyond
that, there is little a user using Grex only through a web browser would need
to do in the way of file maintenance over the web.  The beauty of the web is
that people can use it on their own computers, and don't have to worry about
files on remote systems.  Besides, none of the popular web browsers provide
a way to upload files at the moment, so people wanting to deal with files on
remote systems have to learn to use something other than a web browser.

response 47 of 94:

Dec 10 18:28 UTC 1996

scg, you assume a lot of things.  You assume that most 
people accessing grex through the web will have the access 
& knowledge to use an offline web editor.  Most wont even 
know much HTML, much less where to use it.   All I was 
saying was that if Backtalk can offer a nice little editor 
for fw's to type in HTML code if they want for their conf 
login screens, that can be expanded so people can use the 
same setup to edit or create homepages or other files.  
Yes people can use offline editors, but it is a matter of 
convenience.  If users are allowed to edit messages or 
entrance screens via grex, using grex's web interface edit 
screens, why is it not logical to let users edit any of 
their grex files they wish via the web?  I'm not talking 
"necessary" but "logical"  

And you also assume that people coming here are doing so 
on computers they own and assume they must be using 
customized browsers.  Many grexers are students using 
school computers, or library computers that they cannot 
download files on.  People with their own hard drives dont 
really need to keep any files at all on grex, but they do, 
just as a matter of convenience for some, a matter of 
necessity for others.

SCG, you may live this priviledged life where you have top 
of the line equipment and know what can be done with it, 
but the operative thinking needs to be that most people 
dont.  That what is offered through grex regardless of 
interface needs to be (as a general assumption) as 
accessible and easy to use as possible. 

Based on your bourgeois thinking, people shouldnt even be 
using editors on grex at all, they should be composing all 
documents on their homecomputers with the fancy latest 
edition word proc programs that naturally everyone has, 
and ftp'ing or copying them over here.  Strange as it may 
seem to you some people put up with net lag because 
theyhave to.  Some people dont use offline web editors 
because they cant.  Etc.

response 49 of 94:

Dec 10 22:55 UTC 1996

I think we should pursue 501(c)3 status, being careful that the goals stated
are our real goals.  That means something like:
  - Primarily, to provide a publically accessiable forum for electronic
    communications.
  - Secondarily, to provide free or inexpensive access to electronic
    resources to people who might otherwise not be able to afford them.
We should not be tempted to "fake" our goals or promise anything we don't
already do, but if we get get 501(c)3 status based on what we are really
doing, then we should.

We should continue to being committed to providing a wide range of access
alternatives to our users.  This will include Web tools.  The choice of
which tools to use should be left up to the users.  We shouldn't try to
"push" any one interface over the others.

response 51 of 94:

Dec 11 08:04 UTC 1996

As a person that started to pursue a 501(c)3 application for Grex (and I
still have some accumulated papers, though probably obsolete now), the
problem *was* some polarization among members about proceeding - enough to
dampen my motivation to proceed. Those opposed viewed Grex as a club
serving its members, though it is pretty apparent to me that it mostly
serves users for free. I think an application would be successful, though
it might take an iteration or two. One thing that has changed is that,
with BackTalk, the public conferencing Grex provides is more uniquely
charitable than when it was also wrapped up with other services.

response 53 of 94:

Dec 11 16:34 UTC 1996

#51...exactly!  most members  seem to see grex as a private club, 
a fraternity, but by simultaneously offering its services as a public
service, it is trying to be the opposite.  I thought grex was a gift
from some talented AnnArbor computer programmres to the users of the
internet and the community.  But it is now obvious that grex is only
open access to the public because there arent enough users otherwise
to keep it viable.  If there had been a base of users already in place
to solidly support grex when it was started, I doubt it ever would have
been open access.  If there was a way to cultivate and attract new users
without being open access, I bet most early members would have preferred a
dues payment evento get a login id.

response 55 of 94:

Dec 11 17:19 UTC 1996

I wish you'd been at the Grex founders' meetings.  Free, open, public access
was one of our most basic, most important, goals.

response 57 of 94:

Dec 11 17:22 UTC 1996

Valerie slipped in with #55. Valerie is a founder.

response 59 of 94:

Dec 11 18:04 UTC 1996

"History is bunk."  -- Henry Ford  (?)    :)

response 61 of 94:

Dec 11 21:34 UTC 1996

oh I think the community is special too, or Iwouldnt spend so much
time here.  And I'm sure open access was what many of the founders swanted.
Bt runnign from 501(3)(c) status is a straneg way to show that you are a 
community and not a private club.

response 63 of 94:

Dec 11 21:42 UTC 1996

Telling us over and over again that we're all a bunch of horrible evil people
is a really strange way to show that you like what we're doing here.