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Grex > Oldcoop > #376: The problems with Grex, e-mail and spam | |
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| 25 new of 480 responses total. |
cross
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response 370 of 480:
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Dec 21 14:24 UTC 2006 |
Wow. That's a pretty hardcore statement.
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cmcgee
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response 371 of 480:
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Dec 21 15:19 UTC 2006 |
cross, send me an email at this login if you would please. I have a couple
questions for you I'd like to clarify.
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cross
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response 372 of 480:
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Dec 21 15:50 UTC 2006 |
Sure thing.
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remmers
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response 373 of 480:
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Dec 21 16:23 UTC 2006 |
Re #367: It was the manner of service that was the problem. We didn't
want closed conferences.
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jep
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response 374 of 480:
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Dec 21 16:46 UTC 2006 |
It is definitely true that Arbornet's charitable mission was interesting
to only a few, from the time of the merger on forward. Almost everyone
involved wanted only to keep M-Net up and running. A number of vocal
posters were pretty hostile to the idea of doing anything beyond that.
I don't think there were more than a dozen people who ever did anything
which was not exclusively for M-Net from the time of the merger.
M-Net was tied to the Arbornet charter, which had provisions for
community forums and an educational mission. No one at all was ever
interested in those sorts of things, not since M-Net came along, anyway.
Arbornet was founded with a big budget at first, I guess as a potential
tax write-off for NETI.
When Grex became a 501(c)(3) organization, Jan chartered it as doing
exactly what it was already doing. That was simple, straightforward,
and clever enough I didn't think it would actually work, but it did.
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mcnally
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response 375 of 480:
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Dec 21 17:57 UTC 2006 |
re #373:
> We didn't want closed conferences.
Except for staff, right?
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nharmon
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response 376 of 480:
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Dec 21 18:00 UTC 2006 |
Good point, Mike.
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cross
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response 377 of 480:
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Dec 21 18:11 UTC 2006 |
(That's where staff can bitch about all the users!)
(For the humor impaired, that was a joke. Okay, only partly.)
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tod
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response 378 of 480:
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Dec 21 18:39 UTC 2006 |
Before too many people get off on a tangent about MISSIONS, lets just look
at the Articles of Incorporation for both ARBORNET and CYBERSPACE
COMMUNICATIONS.
ARBORNET
To organize and operate a community-based computer conferecing system in Ann
Arbor, Michigan, involving as many local citizens as possible in computer
conferencing activities of an educational, informational, and data collection
and dissemination nature.
This organization is organized and operated exclusively for purposed described
in Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.
CYBERSPACE COMMUNICATIONS
The corporation is organized for such charitable and educational purposes as
may qualify it for exemption from the federal income tax under Section 501(c)3
of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended (or the corresponding
provisions of any future United States internal revenue law.)
More specifically, such purposes include, but are not limited to, the
advancement of public education and scientific endeavor through interaction
with computers, and humans via computers, using computer conferencing.
Further purposes include the exchange of scientific and technical information
about the various aspects of computer science, such as operating systems,
computer networks, and computer programming.
re #369
Grexers - and M-Netters - are only really interested in one goal. Keeping
Grex (or M-Net) up and running.
The charitable mission is a joke.
re #374
M-Net was tied to the Arbornet charter, which had provisions for
community forums and an educational mission. No one at all was ever
interested in those sorts of things, not since M-Net came along, anyway.
Neither of you remember when we had toolkits made and taught hardware class?
Or maybe you missed the M-Net/UNIX manual that was published?
To date, it seems both organizations have stuck to their purposes to provide
"computer conferencing" or "interaction with computers" and the educational
or scientific or data collection bits are sort of ancillary but they DO
exist.
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rcurl
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response 379 of 480:
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Dec 21 18:41 UTC 2006 |
The particular closed conferences for local charitable non-profits would
have been a service to the community. There is no reason why Grex cannot
provide different services for different community functions, within its
mission statement. They decided, however to continue to just do one thing
one way.
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cmcgee
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response 380 of 480:
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Dec 21 18:47 UTC 2006 |
on Gres, "they" is "we". Grex is run cooperatively, grex is run
democratically, and there are procedures for anyone to bring an issue to a
vote. Any minority viewpoint can be posted for discussion. Any viewpoint
that is turned into a votable motion can be voted on by the whole membership
IF a sufficient percentage of the membership agrees to place it on the agenda
for a vote.
It is disengenuous for rane to say "They decided, however,,,,,,". Rane is
a member, and Rane's viewpoint did not prevail. No anonymous "they" made a
decision.
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tod
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response 381 of 480:
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Dec 21 18:53 UTC 2006 |
To be fair, Rane probably didn't know that historically Grex wasn't a
501(c)(3) from its inception nor for many years so that mental picture of
reaching out beyond the embittered Marcus crowd hadn't happened yet.
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remmers
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response 382 of 480:
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Dec 21 18:59 UTC 2006 |
Todd, that's ridiculous.
Grex is perfectly willing to support non-profits in ways within its means
and consistent with its policies, and has done so.
Re #375: "Except for staff, right?" Right. The policy disallowing closed
conferences, with an exception for Staff, was passed by member vote in
1997, by the way. See http://www.grex.org/grexdoc/archives/votes/vote05b
. The resolution was even stronger that, allowing unregistered users to
read conferences.
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rcurl
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response 383 of 480:
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Dec 21 18:59 UTC 2006 |
I did know that as I was participating when Grex applied for 501etc. But
that was no reason why Grex could not have acted out of "community spirit".
I've noticed this tendency in other charitable non-profits. They tend to close
around the specific interests of the controlling group, and avoid the more
difficult realm of community outreach: unless, of course, that is specifically
written in their mission.
Re #380: don't read more into my use of "they" than is there. They, we, those
that discussed it, the board....were opposed.
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cross
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response 384 of 480:
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Dec 21 19:19 UTC 2006 |
It seems clear that the staff needs a place to communicate privately. I'm
not sure the staff conference is it; when I was on staff, I saw a lot of
bashing in the (admitedly older) items that I found distressing. The staff,
if anything on grex, is too closed, as has been stated. I would think that
a mailing list would be better suited for that sort of thing (and probably
more immediate, anyway: sometimes things get posted in the staff conference
that aren't acted on by certain people because those people haven't logged
into grex and thus don't see the conference).
Perhaps it's time to reconsider opening up the staff conference (or
restarting it with a new public conference).
I also think that, instead of calling Todd ridiculous, one should take it
as a clear voice of frustration with the current state of grex. This is
something that should be addressed, not dismissed out of hand.
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remmers
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response 385 of 480:
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Dec 21 19:47 UTC 2006 |
I took Todd's statement as a summary of Grex history and will stand by my
characterization of it.
I also believe that although Grex certainly has problems that need to be
addressed, the current state isn't nearly as bad as you like to make it
out to be.
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tod
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response 386 of 480:
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Dec 21 19:50 UTC 2006 |
re #382
Todd, that's ridiculous.
Grex is perfectly willing...
John, I was referring to Rane's perceptions at the time of the request. If
today, there is a movement to provide closed conferencing for other
501(c)(3)'s then I'd love to hear/see it.
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cmcgee
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response 387 of 480:
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Dec 21 19:52 UTC 2006 |
*sigh* It does not bode well for board members to start the new year with
such ruffled fur. please, all of you, try to make a private list of the VALID
criticisms that are being made, no matter who makes them. Grex's current
state is distressful to quite a few of us. Board members sniping at each
other, in public, adds to the problems.
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cmcgee
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response 388 of 480:
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Dec 21 19:52 UTC 2006 |
Tod slipped.
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cross
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response 389 of 480:
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Dec 21 19:55 UTC 2006 |
Honestly, I'm not trying to snipe at anybody. But I'd prefer that we don't
just blow people's criticisms off. Personally, I think Todd's got some valid
things to say.
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remmers
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response 390 of 480:
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Dec 21 20:08 UTC 2006 |
Re #385: You were speculating, then, and you were wrong. Rane was a
board member at the time. Grex was committed from its inception to
qualifying for and seeking 501(c)3 status, although we didn't have it yet.
Rane and others were fully aware of this.
Re #387: Colleen, I'm not trying to snipe either, but if I read something
that I believe is unfair or incorrect, I'm going to speak my mind.
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tod
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response 391 of 480:
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Dec 21 20:29 UTC 2006 |
I'm going to speak my mind.
Me, too.
Grex wouldn't have happened if Marcus hadn't lost his M-Net account. Closed
conferencing was an idea that staff wanted to keep to itself and the idea of
giving that benefit to outsiders was beyond approach. I don't think my
assessment of the period in which Rane referenced is "ridiculous" at all.
If somehow the concept of providing closed conferences to 501(c)(3)'s has
somewhere along the line become acceptable, I'd love to hear it.
So far as I can tell, staff has been the one calling the shots on this since
the idea was first suggested. It's all too telling that the folks who jumped
for the seats on Board ARE/WERE staff, don't you think?
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cmcgee
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response 392 of 480:
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Dec 21 20:40 UTC 2006 |
The folks who were ELECTED to the Board are/were staff. There were lots of
other choices for members to make
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cross
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response 393 of 480:
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Dec 21 20:53 UTC 2006 |
I think that Todd is referring to the group of folks who logged into grex at
nearly the last moment to nominate/be nominated/accept nominations.... At
least one of those is a staff member who does not otherwise login on a regular
basis.
Regarding #390; Aw you're a swell guy, Remmers. I'll buy you a beer one of
these days....
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tod
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response 394 of 480:
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Dec 21 21:00 UTC 2006 |
re #393
referring to the group of folks who logged into grex at
nearly the last moment to nominate/be nominated/accept nominations.... At
least one of those is a staff member who does not otherwise login on a
regular
basis.
Yea, I thought I was the only one who noticed that. It pretty much convinced
me to withdraw my nomination from the Board being that the major "problem"
voiced by users has most often been actions of the staff.
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