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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 293 responses total. |
mcnally
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response 34 of 293:
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Dec 4 10:14 UTC 2003 |
Some argue that the legitimate function of government is to provide
a basic set of circumstances (such as national defense) and serve
as the guarantor of basic rights for citizens.
Others seem to believe part of the proper role of government is to
discourage behaviors they find merely distasteful.
View with extreme skepticism anyone who loudly proclaims that they
want less government interference in people's lives while fighting
tooth and nail to maintain or even expand government involvement
in people's intimate private lives. What they usually mean is that
they want less government interference in their own lives but will
be happy to tell you how you must run yours.
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klg
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response 35 of 293:
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Dec 4 17:18 UTC 2003 |
re: "#33 (richard): . . . Allowing gay marriages would only IMPROVE
the overrall marriage statistics."
Which "overall" statistics? And, your proof for that is . . . ?
(Not that we actually expect to receive a direct response.)
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flem
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response 36 of 293:
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Dec 4 17:27 UTC 2003 |
Yeah, I don't buy that either. I don't see any reason to believe that
gay people wouldn't mess marriage up just as often as straight people.
Of course, this isn't even close to being a reason not to legalize gay
marriage.
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twenex
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response 37 of 293:
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Dec 4 18:08 UTC 2003 |
Re: #33 : You want gay marriage legalised just so you can gerrymander hte
statistics on lasting marriages.
Re: #34: Yes, exactly.
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klg
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response 38 of 293:
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Dec 4 18:10 UTC 2003 |
Based on the following article, Mr. flem may be correct.
http://www.massnews.com/2003_Editions/5_May/053003_mn_gay_definition_of_
marriage_is_not_the_equal_of_heterosexual_marriage.shtml
May 30, 2003
Gay Definition of Marriage is Not the Equal of Heterosexual Marriage
Facts Show Sexual Fidelity Not a Part of Gay Unions - By W. Moran
. . .
"There is, in fact, a large body of evidence which shows that gay
relationships are not the equal of what heterosexual marriage is. . .
"The first revelation we could examine is commitment. The 1984
book "The Gay Couple" was written by a psychiatrist and psychologist
(who happened to be a homosexual couple). . . After much searching,
they were able to locate only 156 couples in lasting relation-
ships. . . (O)nly 7 couples had actually maintained sexual fidelity
and none of the seven had been together more than 5 years.
" . . . (H)ow about the health aspect of all this? Here's something
from the upscale gay magazine Genre, which surveyed 1037
readers . . . "One of the single largest groups in the gay community
still experiencing an increase of HIV are supposedly monogamous
couples." . . . 42% have had sex with more than 100 different
partners and 16% claim between 40 to 100 partners.(2) . . .
"According to Dr. (Martin) Dannecker . . . (o)f the homosexual men in
steady relationships . . . "the average number of homosexual contacts
per person was 115 in the past year." In contrast, single gay men had
only 45 sexual contacts. (4)
"According to gay icons Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen . . . "The
cheating ratio of 'married' [committed] gay males, given enough time,
approaches 100%." (5)
". . . For whatever reasons, and it can be backed up by research and
anecdotal evidence, few gays form unions that are exclusive to their
partner. . . ."
(Wally Moran is a life-long journalist and publisher from Ontario.)
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flem
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response 39 of 293:
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Dec 4 18:40 UTC 2003 |
I am not even sure exactly what you just tried to put into my mouth, but
it sure wasn't what I said.
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keesan
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response 40 of 293:
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Dec 4 19:09 UTC 2003 |
Not all homosexuals are men. On my block there were three divorces, all
heterosexual, one heterosexual couple still married, and one female couple
with a kid who had been together a long time and bought a house.
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gull
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response 41 of 293:
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Dec 4 23:42 UTC 2003 |
I think it's amusing that conservatives want to deny gays the right to
formally commit to a monogamous relationship, and then they turn around and
complain gays aren't monogamous enough. It'd be interesting to see
statistics on how monogamous unmarried straight people are.
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klg
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response 42 of 293:
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Dec 5 02:19 UTC 2003 |
http://www.icpsr.umich.edu:8080/GSS/rnd1998/reports/t-
reports/topic18.htm
Adult Sexual Behavior in 1989: Number of Partners, Frequency, and Risk
Tom W. Smith NORC
University of Chicago
November, 1989 Revised February, 1989 Revised January, 1991
GSS Topical Report No. 18 Paper presented to the American Association
for the Advancement of Science, February, 1990, New Orleans
Publication Notes: A revised version of this paper was published in
Family Planning Perspectives, 23 (May/June, 1991), 102-107. This
research was done for the General Social Survey Project directed by
James A. Davis and Tom W. Smith. The project is funded by the National
Science Foundation, Grant No. SES-87- 18467.
. . .Despite much chatter about open marriages and "swinging" and the
contention by pop and pseudo-scientific studies about the normalcy of
infidelity (Smith, 1988; Smith, 1989a), Americans actually seem to
live up to the norm of fidelity fairly well (Greeley, Michael, and
Smith, 1990). Over a given year 1.5% of married people have a sex
partners other than their spouse (Table 3). . . .
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russ
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response 43 of 293:
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Dec 5 02:44 UTC 2003 |
If a man and a woman need a marriage license, what do lesbians need?
A liquor license.
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johnnie
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response 44 of 293:
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Dec 5 03:02 UTC 2003 |
re 38:
>"According to Dr. (Martin) Dannecker . . . (o)f the homosexual men in
>steady relationships . . . "the average number of homosexual contacts
>per person was 115 in the past year." In contrast, single gay men had
>only 45 sexual contacts.
I'll bet that heteros in steady relationships get a lot more "sexual
contacts" than hetero singles, too. That's one of the fringe benefits
of goin' steady--it's easier to persuade your partner to jump in the
sack than the blonde at the end of the bar.
At any rate, Wally Moran might not be the best spokesman regarding what
is moral and what is not: http://www.goldhawk.com/gfb/20010401.shtml
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lk
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response 45 of 293:
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Dec 5 12:20 UTC 2003 |
I think Sindi makes a good point. If "conservatives" want to focus
on gay men and monogamy, as if this would discredit the idea of gay
marriage (which might encourage monogamy), then we should also discredit
heterosexual marriage based on comparisons to lesbian relationships.
Of course, the whole issue of monogamy is a red herring. It's none of our
business what (or with whom) a married couple chooses to do in their bedroom.
That the article in #0 is written by by Nixon's press secretary says a lot.
And Republican strategists might want to take note. I also recently read an
article on this topic by George Will. It wasn't as "liberal", but it also
was not as "homophobic" as Will used to be. Will elderly voters care more
about gay marriage or the rising cost of prescriptions and health care?
About social security? And will younger voters be turned off by a
Republican convention reminiscent of 1992?
Much has changed over the last decade or two, and things will continue
to change. Get used to it.
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gull
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response 46 of 293:
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Dec 5 14:37 UTC 2003 |
Re resp:42: That's a statistic for *married* heterosexuals. I asked
about unmarried heterosexuals. You can't compare statistics for married
heterosexuals to homosexuals because the latter aren't allowed to marry.
If all the Republican rhetoric about the social benefits of marriage is
right, we ought to see married people being far more monogamous than
people who aren't married.
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klg
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response 47 of 293:
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Dec 5 17:47 UTC 2003 |
Mr. johnnie - We believe that "contact" refers to the number of
different individuals, not to the number of sexual encounter.
Mr. gull - You ought to be asking about hetereosexuals who are married
or in "committed relationships." Please refer to my response to Mr.
johnnie, above. Your heterosexual friends who are in committed
relationships have encounters with 115 other people each year?
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flem
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response 48 of 293:
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Dec 5 19:34 UTC 2003 |
Maybe instead we should be asking why anyone would care who sleeps with
whom, or what their relative marital statuses are at the time?
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johnnie
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response 49 of 293:
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Dec 5 20:10 UTC 2003 |
Sorry, klg, but the idea that gays in committed relationships are
significantly more promiscuous than their "single" brethren makes no
sense whatsoever, unless one has a deeply pathological view of
homosexuals. The stat (at least as you're reading it) cannot be true.
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gull
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response 50 of 293:
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Dec 5 20:18 UTC 2003 |
Re resp:48: I think whether it's government's job to police that is, in
fact, a good question.
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gull
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response 51 of 293:
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Dec 5 20:21 UTC 2003 |
(I do wonder where these people are who, according to klg, are
apparently having sex with 115 other people each year. I certainly
don't know any of them, and I know a fair number of people who are
bisexual or homosexual. If they're really finding 115 different
partners every year, that's an awful lot of people involved.)
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jp2
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response 52 of 293:
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Dec 5 20:47 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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gull
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response 53 of 293:
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Dec 5 20:55 UTC 2003 |
Wow. How come I never get spam advertising videos of *that*?
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klg
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response 54 of 293:
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Dec 5 20:55 UTC 2003 |
So what figures have you to present, Mr. gull?
re: "#49 (johnnie): Sorry, klg, but the idea that gays in committed
relationships are significantly more promiscuous than their "single"
brethren makes no sense whatsoever"
What, then, would it mean to be in a "committed relationship" if not
exclusivity?? (Call us old-fashioned.)
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gull
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response 55 of 293:
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Dec 5 22:10 UTC 2003 |
Okay, taking a closer look at resp:38.
First off, MassNews appears to be a right-wing news site. This is about
as credible as me quoting Michael Moore to support an argument. The
fact that this was an "exclusive to MassNews" instead of a story from a
mainstream source should be a big warning sign right from the start.
Your second quote does not give the sample size or how the sample was
gathered. That makes the numbers meaningless. Obviously the writer
wants to imply that there were only 156 gay couples in lasting
relationships in the entire known universe, but in reality we don't
know. No percentage is given, either. Is that 312 people (156 * 2) out
of 500? 1000? 10,000? The information is suspiciously lacking, probably
because it doesn't support the writer's argument.
The third quote from the article that you cite, from the gay magazine
Genre, also does not give any information about how the sample was
taken. If it was a sample of their readership, that's unlikely to be
representative; your sexual orientation has to be a pretty big part of
your lifestyle before you start subscribing to magazines about it.
Also, the article does not support your suggestion that the "115
contacts" were with different people. It says "the average number of
homosexual contacts per person." While the article writer clearly wants
us to assume that this implies 115 different people, nothing in the
quote supports that conclusion. It's hardly shocking that someone in a
committed relationship would have more sex than someone who is single --
especially given the note later in the article that the average Canadian
has sex ("sexual contacts", if you will) 102 times per year. That
suggests that homosexuals in committed relationships are having 12% more
sex than average, hardly shocking.
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richard
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response 56 of 293:
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Dec 6 02:48 UTC 2003 |
#34 is exactly right. I think klg is not a conservative, because he is overly
concerned with legislating other people's lives and telling other people what
they can and cannot do. That makes klg more like a communist than a true
conservative. klg doesn't want people to lead their own lives, because only
klg KNOWS what is right for their personal lives. Gays and lesbians who are
in love and have made a life commitment to someone else, shouldn't be allowed
to get married-- in klg's view-- because klg knows better how to lead their
lives than they do. Sheesh.
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twenex
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response 57 of 293:
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Dec 6 10:10 UTC 2003 |
Figures != truth. HMG (Her Majesty's Government)
currently estimates that *upto* five thousand
people a year die from "superbugs" contracted
whilst in hospital which are resistant to
antibiotics. Independent research suggest the
number may be closer to *at least* twenty
thousand. Since HMG also claims that the *total*
number of people who are infected with superbugs
is 100,000 a year, unless the independent
statistics have higher figures on the total
number of infections (i.e. those who are infected
and die, and those who are infected but
recover), that's eithe one hell of a discrepancy,
or one hell of a large proportion of the total
*and* a large discrepancy.
(The discrepancy arises because the methods of
recrding death certificates are not sufficiently
rigorous to record every case of death which was
*not* the direct result of infection with a
superbug, but where such infection was a
contributing factor. Thus HMG's figurtes are in
fact extrapolited from US Govt. statistics,
adjusting for demographicsd and population size.)
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gelinas
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response 58 of 293:
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Dec 6 18:53 UTC 2003 |
("Figures don't lie, but liars figure.")
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