response 337 of 457:

Jun 2 02:15 UTC 2005

After speaking with John this evening, about the newuser program, I 
realize I really don't know enough about it to suggest changes.  Moving to 
Backtalk we'd still need newuser.  It's not there just for Picospan.  I'm 
learning.  

response 341 of 457:

Jun 2 03:38 UTC 2005

Good luck, Mary.

Let me give a little of my perspective on what Dan was talking about, 
and how it conflicts with what Mary was talking about in resp:338.

Mary said Grex is run by the users.  It is, to a point, but the users 
are given the level of consent allowed to them by a very small and 
select group.  Mary is "in".  Jan is "in", and Marcus, STeve, Valerie, 
John Remmers, and as many as several others, but certainly no more 
than several.  That group makes all of the decisions about the staff, 
and all of the real decisions about how Grex is going to be run.  It 
always dominates the Board and always has, and it always will.  It's 
the group recognized by the peripheral users like myself as the group 
which "gets it" about how Grex is supposed to run.  If any of the 
peripheral users didn't agree with that group, they would go away (and 
this has happened), because it's just not worth it to push anything 
against that group.

When the in group stuck with STeve about SunOs for an extra decade, 
then it was dang well written in stone that Grex was going to be on 
SunOs.  When that group finally conceded it was plain unreasonable to 
keep running on SunOs, it took 3 more years to get onto PC hardware.

I've been rooting for cross to gain influence and bring some new ideas 
into the staff for years... something like 5 years I think.  He has 
fought and clawed and scratched and beaten people up to edge his way 
into having some say for all of that time (from my peripheral 
perspective) and now he says he's worn out.  It is *hard* to break 
into that circle, if it's possible at all, and it's not worth it for 
anyone but a fanatic.  But the "in" group is anti-fanatic, too.  Aruba 
entered it, and maybe srw could have.  So I guess there's a way but it 
seems pretty dang rare to me and I'm not sure it's possible any more.

It's been fine, the "in" group has done a fine job of keeping things 
usable and comfortable for everyone else.  It's not a tyrannical group 
at all, as long as you don't oppose any of it's core principles such 
as the technical infallability of mdw and steve.

But now the "in" group is shrinking and moving on to other things.  I 
already referred to mdw and valerie abandoning Grex, and others being 
less interested.  I don't blame them; everyone changes over time, but 
there's no one around and acceptable to take their place.

Given an unexpandable core but one which can diminish, and it's 
inevitable that an organization is going to fade in time.  M-Net's 
entire core vanished, then the peripheral group collapsed and formed a 
new core, then that vanished, too.  The result can be seen.  (M-Net 
has 6 eligible voters, and didn't manage to have an election in April 
as required by the by-laws.)  There but for the grace of <insert deity 
here> goes Grex.

Grex needs to bulk up it's core, but the "in" group here has as one of 
it's very highest principles than no one else "gets it".  The silent 
majority of us peripheral users support their belief, too.

response 343 of 457:

Jun 2 04:47 UTC 2005

it'd be nice if we could post edit our posts....I made a boo-boo :O

response 347 of 457:

Jun 2 13:53 UTC 2005

Re resp:345: Well, information hiding is one way an "in group" stays
exclusive.  Information is power in any organization.

response 349 of 457:

Jun 2 15:06 UTC 2005

The old argument of "anyone who wants to be {root,ircop,sysop,admin} just
wants it for the power, or to further their agenda, otherwise, they wouldn't
want to be {root,ircop,sysop,admin}" has been used for decades to discourage
people from volunteering their time to improve a system. 

I mean, am I the only one who was somewhat offended that when people started
suggesting that we need more volunteers that the response was that the user's
were to blame because of how staff is treated in BBS.

Which, by the way, I don't buy for a second. After system crashes, there is
usually an outpouring of gratitude and support from the users. Save for a few
trolls here and there, people generally support the staff.

response 351 of 457:

Jun 2 16:22 UTC 2005

Would STeve be willing to have some staff apprentices work with him? 

response 353 of 457:

Jun 2 17:30 UTC 2005

re #352
But that sounds like WORK!  :(

response 355 of 457:

Jun 2 18:48 UTC 2005

Re: #349. Nate, you're right.

To be fair, not all the sysadmins on Grex blame the users. For various
reasons, some of them unrelated to their capacities as sysadmin, I've
suspected for quite a while that some of those who do have a generalized
attitude problem.

response 357 of 457:

Jun 2 19:16 UTC 2005

 Grex needs to bulk up it's core, but the "in" group here has as one of
 it's very highest principles than no one else "gets it".  The silent
 majority of us peripheral users support their belief, too.

 Grex needs to bulk up it's core, but the "in" group here has as one of
 it's very highest principles than no one else "gets it".  The silent
 majority of us peripheral users support their belief, too.

If that's true, which it very well may be, then it's the "in group" that need
to "get it". Many of our most regular users (myself included) have some level
of UN*X expertise. Many more of them, perhaps excluding only the trolls,
subscribe to some version of our "philosophy". Indeed, iirc, complaints about
the (perceived or real) abuse of the system or its principles have, when
specific, usually come from the users and been directed at staff, not the other
way around; other staff have also either kept silent on the issue or defended
the target(s) of the complaints. 

It's easier to inculcate technical expertise than philosophy. Perhaps none of 
those outside the "in group" have the expertise to hack on a binary-only copy 
of newuser, but given that those who do won't last forever 
(for whatever reason), who cares? It may be time to start replacing our 
proprietary sw with open-source versions, or at least with versions which have
source code open, but only to staff. The more sysadmins we have, the more
time they will collectively be able to spend on projects like this. If staff
want more colleagues, and they don't accept that people who might have the
ability to join them might not know Grex inside out but can be shown the ropes,
and that their expertise can grow over time (they can learn by doing), they are
going to *have* to accept it. If not, I can only hope, that those users who
care revolt, and set up their own system, a la Grex, just like what happened in
the early nineties to M-Net. I don't know if there's enough momentum for that
to  happen, though.

response 359 of 457:

Jun 2 19:29 UTC 2005

Re #356: that's a recipe for nothing ever getting fixed when current staff
fades away. But I don't believe it. I suspect there are quite a few
members that need only know what the fault is, and could look at the code
and fix it. OK - ask them to do a "beta" fix, and STeve can check it out
and test it, before installation.  But things would move forward - and
some new people would learn how Grex software works.

response 361 of 457:

Jun 2 19:48 UTC 2005

mike doesnt have the proper level of
aspberger's syndrome to fit into that
role.