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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 393 responses total. |
albaugh
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response 311 of 393:
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Jan 12 22:21 UTC 2004 |
Note that my recollection on the reconsidering of "closing the scribbled log"
was in response to the anonymous internet reading of grex conferences that
backtalk allowed.
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mary
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response 312 of 393:
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Jan 13 01:01 UTC 2004 |
I have a question for Jan.
Let's say we do indeed decide not to restore these items. We'll say that
Valerie has a right to remove the responses of all those who participated
in the discussion, because the discussion was about her. (I'm not going to
argue that point but concede it for the moment.) And we're going to
remove the entirety of the divorce items because, at some point, what
other people said about or to jep may be harmful to him or his custody
battle or his child or even his wife. Yes, John, even your wife.
Anyhow, we do this because it's the right thing to do.
So when the next person comes along, all upset, begging for responses
entered by someone else to be censored because they could indeed hurt
him, or someone he loved, or his job status, or whatever, then what?
Do we say our kindness was a one time gift? Do we ask for the whole of
Grex to vote but first remove the item? Do we elect a censorship czar to
decide whether the request is authentic?
That's the end of my question.
You can say Valerie's action was that of a rogue staffer, acting on her
own. But if we, meaning staff, board or even the whole of our membership,
agrees to censor these items for the reasons that have been given, then we
will have set some precedent. We will have instituted censorship of each
other's posts if only you can make the case the responses are really
about you or hurtful.
Yuck. Double yuck.
I'm very anti-censorship. I'm pro informing people of how the system
operates and warning them to join in, with this warning: they might not
like everything they see. And they won't be able to erase what others
say. We all get to have opinions, for better or worse. Welcome to
Grex.
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naftee
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response 313 of 393:
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Jan 13 02:01 UTC 2004 |
Great! But neither jep NOR valerie told the general public that they
had killed items until AFTER the fact.
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jaklumen
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response 314 of 393:
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Jan 13 02:58 UTC 2004 |
Would doing otherwise have changed things? I'm curious.
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gelinas
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response 315 of 393:
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Jan 13 03:37 UTC 2004 |
The question was for Jan, but I'll venture my answer:
Valerie deleted her items because she thought that such action was within
the guidelines for grex. We have all since learned that she was wrong:
her action was NOT within the guidelines.
Valerie deleted JEP's items because she could not think of any way to NOT
delete them, after having deleted her own. (I'm reminded of a line from
"Joan of Arcadia": "Don't blame me for your lack of imagination.")
We are all now very clear on what current policy is: we can delete our
own text, but not the text of others. The events of last week were an
aberation that will NOT be repeated.
So why not restore the erroneously deleted text? Because to do so would
serve no USEFUL purpose. It might make a few people feel better, but
it would not improve the state of grex. It would NOT undo the harm of
last week. However, it WOULD do fresh harm: those items could never again
lie fallow. They would be instantly copied and recopied by all interested,
and many disinterested, parties; we are all sensitised to them. Better to
live with the single wrong of their deletion than the double-wrong of
their restoration.
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gull
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response 316 of 393:
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Jan 13 03:43 UTC 2004 |
I've kind of come around to agreeing with the view expressed in resp:
315. I think we need to look forward from here, not backward.
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jmsaul
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response 317 of 393:
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Jan 13 04:44 UTC 2004 |
Re #315: I don't think Valerie cared whether her actions were within the
guidelines or not; her own comfort and feeling of control were
paramount. She herself said that she was prepared to be removed
from staff for it, so it's clear she at least suspected she was
doing something she wasn't supposed to.
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bru
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response 318 of 393:
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Jan 13 04:58 UTC 2004 |
delete and be damned! They are no great loss.
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jmsaul
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response 319 of 393:
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Jan 13 05:00 UTC 2004 |
If that's the standard, let's torch 80% of the conferencing system.
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other
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response 320 of 393:
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Jan 13 05:24 UTC 2004 |
Mary, I would respond that if it came to it, our answer would be
that this was an aberration, not a one-time kindness. Our answer
would be that this was the result of an internal communication issue
we didn't know existed, and we're using this opportunity to insure
that it doesn't happen again. Our answer would be that this WAS a
violation of existing policy.
My guiding principle here is the one of least harm. That principle
dictates that the text rightfully removed remain removed, and the
text not rightfully removed be restored, except insofar as it quotes
significantly (an admittedly unclear standard) from the rightfully
removed text. The stated purposes of item removal were specifically
prevention of future parody (Valerie) and prevention of future abuse
(John). Valerie's case is easier, since it is her text in specific
which represents the potential, and it can easily be identified and
separated. Jep's case is a bit harder. Not having great
familiarity with the precise content of the items, I can't say
exactly how best to serve both his need and the need to protect
against censorship, but I'm SURE there is a balance to be struck.
However, that compromise will likely be less satisfactory to jep
than to those others who posted in his items.
Jep's right to redress his own errors does not supercede the rights
of others to control over their own thoughts and ideas, nor does it
supercede the rights of Grex to to what is in its own best interests
within the limitations of the law, and that's something he'll have
to accept.
The point is that we can move on from here with some reasonable
action which addresses the current issues without establishing a
precedent Grex can't live with, and we can do it without completely
backtracking and exposing jep to the full extent he fears.
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willcome
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response 321 of 393:
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Jan 13 09:57 UTC 2004 |
Do you know about the harm principle? It's based on you shouldn't harm the
harmless as a legal law. What do you think?
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jmsaul
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response 322 of 393:
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Jan 13 13:15 UTC 2004 |
Re #320: That's well said, and a good explanation of my position too.
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iggy
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response 323 of 393:
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Jan 13 17:00 UTC 2004 |
(for those of you who are impaired, the following is sarcasm:)
i think that all text on grex should be erased in an attempt to start
over from scratch. within every conference there should be a warning
about not entering anything that you wouldn't want to be read on the front
page of a nation-wide newspaper. and a prodding that you may claim to
not care now, but that if you change yuor mind in 5 years you cannot go
back and un-do what you wrote.
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tod
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response 324 of 393:
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Jan 13 20:54 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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slynne
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response 325 of 393:
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Jan 13 21:29 UTC 2004 |
That is a little bit of an over-reaction.
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jp2
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response 326 of 393:
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Jan 13 21:37 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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naftee
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response 327 of 393:
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Jan 13 22:13 UTC 2004 |
You should see janc over-react.
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jaklumen
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response 328 of 393:
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Jan 14 09:36 UTC 2004 |
Welcome to the theater of the absurd?
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cross
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response 329 of 393:
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Jan 14 16:51 UTC 2004 |
I encourage everyone who reads this to ask themselves the following:
What would the reaction be if a random person broke root on grex and
deleted a bunch of conference items?
Wouldn't we restore them?
So what makes this situation different? That some well known and popular
grexers deleted (either directly or by proxy) their items? Is it the
fact that these individuals are well-known and popular that allows us
to condone their actions? Is it the fact that they had good reasons?
This is important. Why are people willing to let valerie and jep slide
when if the exact same thing happened under different circumstances,
the question wouldn't even be asked: we'd simply restore the deleted data.
I disagree with Joe that restoring the items would serve no useful
purpose. It would send a message that Grex does *not* tolerate
censorship, and that if such aberations do happen, they will be undone
quickly.
That said, as I have proposed before, I think that jep and valerie
(or someone acting on their behalfs) should be allowed to delete their
responses from their items prior to them appearing publically.
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slynne
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response 330 of 393:
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Jan 14 17:04 UTC 2004 |
Honestly, I am willing to let valerie and jep slide on this because
those items are so personal. I realize that I am not being objective
about this.
I think that restoring the items with the comments of anyone willing to
have them deleted is probably the best solution to this issue. I think
that most people would be willing to have their own comments deleted
from those items. The few comments that would be left would not be
harmful to anyone, imho.
But honestly, that solution pretty much acomplishes the same thing as
just leaving them deleted. I get the whole thing about how we dont want
to set a precident for some users being allowed to delete other users
posts and all that. I dont think that the posts themselves are worth
much especially since they will be taken out of any context they once
had. In the grand scheme of things, I dont think these items are
important. I personally do not care if they remain deleted or not.
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flem
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response 331 of 393:
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Jan 14 17:35 UTC 2004 |
The difference between leaving the items completely deleted and
restoring them minus the responses of users who *explicitly state* that
they don't mind having those comments deleted is this: In the former
case we as the community of grex are saying that the desires of a single
user are more important than the rights of ownership and freedom of
speech of all the other users who posted in those items. We're not even
saying that one person's rights are more important than anothers, we're
saying that one person's *desires* are more important than the rest of
our *rights*.
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slynne
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response 332 of 393:
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Jan 14 18:02 UTC 2004 |
Yes. I can totally see how you can see it that way. And I agree that it
is wrong to allow a user to delete anyone else's posts. I know that if
the board were asked to vote on this, I would feel compeled to be
objective and the objective view is that grex users should not be
allowed to delete other user's posts. Nor should they be able to have a
staff member delete other user's posts (unless in the context of
something like the proposed blog conference).
Yet, I would hope that anyone who had responded in those items would be
willing to give their permission to have their responses deleted. To do
otherwise is, imho, rubbing salt into the wound. I honestly believe
that most of the people who have commented in those items would be
quite willing to allow their posts to be deleted.
FWIW, I understand that there is a big difference between allowing
one's posts to be deleted and having them deleted by someone else
without permission even if the end result is the same.
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keesan
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response 333 of 393:
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Jan 14 18:05 UTC 2004 |
So far how many people have said they are NOT willing to have their postings
deleted from Valerie's and JEP's items? The only one I recall is Mary.
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albaugh
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response 334 of 393:
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Jan 14 19:16 UTC 2004 |
Re: #333 - it doesn't matter. The default position must be "as close as
possible to what should have happened", which is all people's responses remain
unless they exclicity go and scribble them themselves.
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cross
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response 335 of 393:
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Jan 14 19:38 UTC 2004 |
JP2 said he didn't want his responses deleted.
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