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25 new of 65 responses total.
orinoco
response 31 of 65: Mark Unseen   Feb 24 12:40 UTC 2000

(Funny, I'd thought he'd only played with a guitarist very early on in his
career.  (Or at least, so my liner notes claim (which is what I get for
trusting liner notes, I guess)).  When was the CD you've got recorded?)
oddie
response 32 of 65: Mark Unseen   Feb 25 04:58 UTC 2000

This is a newish CD, recorded 1996 or so -- it seems that recently he has
performed  and recorded mostly with the same trio he had in the 1950s.
The liner notes for the Verve "Jazz Masters 16" compilation of Oscar Peterson
tracks list one other guitar trio, with Barney Kessel and of course Ray
Brown, but that track too is from the '50s (1952, to be exact). The Ellis
tracks on it range from 1956-59; all of the later recordings are from the
Sixties and are piano/bass/drum groups. Did O.P. switch to another recording
label after that?

Question -- what kind of instrument do the guitarists in these groups play?
It doesn't sound like a pure acoustic guitar, but I don't think it's a modern
solid-body electric either; maybe an acoustic guitar with a pickup??
(I ask this because on PBS news tonight there was a little segment about the
history of the electric guitar; the guest was asked about Les Paul, said
he tried to get a "pure" electric tone (without distortion of any kind)
and tried to play a few bars in his style. It didn't sound all that pure to
me, compared to the things Ellis & Kessel play...)

For that matter, who was Les Paul and what kind of music did he play? I have 
only heard the name...
scott
response 33 of 65: Mark Unseen   Feb 25 13:22 UTC 2000

Jazz guitarists often play an "archtop", which is an acoustic guitar
constructed a bit more like a violin.  Often these guitars have pickups.
oddie
response 34 of 65: Mark Unseen   Feb 26 04:38 UTC 2000

Oh, right, I think I may have seen pictures of those actually. Is it a
standard magnetic pickup or more like a microphone?

SInce we were talking about jazz guitarists, I picked up Pat Metheny Group's
_Letter from Home_ at the library today. Although I like some of the guitar
solos, overall it is a bit too soft and smooth for me. They also have a cd
of apparently purely acoustic recordings by Metheny and bassist Charlie Haden,
which I might get out next week.
scott
response 35 of 65: Mark Unseen   Feb 26 17:54 UTC 2000

Standard magnetic pickup; typically a humbucker.
orinoco
response 36 of 65: Mark Unseen   Feb 26 20:43 UTC 2000

If I'm remembering right, using a magnetic pickup on an acoustic guitar will
normally give you feedback.  I think this is because the surface to which the
pickup would be attatched is the soundboard of the guitar, which is itself
vibrating, but someone who knows more about guitars should verify this. 
Archtop guitars are the exception to this.  
scott
response 37 of 65: Mark Unseen   Feb 28 15:38 UTC 2000

Any type of pickup on an acoustic guitar is more susceptible to feedback. 
That's because the thin body walls can pick up external noises.

Archtops tend to have pickups mounted to a solid part of the guitar such as
the end of the neck, which helps.
orinoco
response 38 of 65: Mark Unseen   Feb 28 18:22 UTC 2000

Er...yeah.  What he said. :)
carson
response 39 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 4 05:01 UTC 2000

(brief interlude:  I have to program a jazz show tomorrow, and I'd
like to tie it in to Mardi Gras by focusing on the Louisiana scene.
any suggestion on what to play?)
mcnally
response 40 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 4 05:50 UTC 2000

  Geez..  That could be pretty tough, putting together a jazz program
  with a New Orleans theme..
carson
response 41 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 4 19:06 UTC 2000

 :)

(no, seriously. I'm completely clueless and don't know which artists
are actually from the Louisiana area and which ones are relative
newcomers. I also want to [mostly] stay away from tracks that were
recorded by N.O. artists while away from the area.)

(I have some ideas, but suggestions are always helpful.)
oddie
response 42 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 5 05:33 UTC 2000

Are you looking for old (1910s, 20s) recordings, or more recent things? I have
to admit I don't know much about either -- Louis Armstrong (of course), King
Oliver (trumpeter in whose band Louis' career started), Buddy Bolden (street
band trumpeter, think he may have been a barber by day for some reason, or
maybe I'm confusing him with someone else), Jelly Roll Morton (ragtime/early
jazz pianistm who liked to claim that he invented jazz) are the only names
that spring to mind.
(among Louis Armstrong's many groups were the Hot Five, Hot Seven, and the
All-Stars)

Then in the 1950s, R&B got started in New Orleans...  Not exactly the same 
thing that's today marketed as r&b, but a kind of jazz that represented a 
return to the idea of jazz as dance music with great popular appeal (a reaction
against bebop, whose practitioners played the music *they* wanted to play
or even deliberately tried to annoy the listening public and older musicians,
by playing in strange, harsh-sounding chords and so on...)
Louis Jordan, a saxophonist, is the only name I know, sadly...
(Of course, r&b evolved into rock'n'roll, along the way  apparently getting
itself confused somehow with bebop or bop, so that Elvis  was referred to as
"the king of Western bop" at one point...) 

Nowadays I think there is a sort of revival of older jazz styles going on in
New Orleans, like marching-band music and so on...isn't there a band called the
"Dirty Dozen Brass Band" that does this kind of thing??

(I'm afraid that wasn't much help, especially since you probably won't get to
read this before doing your show, but I felt like babbling on anyway...)

To babble on a little further -- it can be really amusing to read the opinions
of the more snobbish jazz critics on R&B's evolution into rock. The mostly
excellent "Jazz: America's Classical Music" has a hilarious little section on
how the process started by Elvis led to a huge list of social evils, the
last of which was "Brooke Shields exalted as child sex goddess of the 80's"

oddie
response 43 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 5 05:36 UTC 2000

(I got out Miles' _Sketches of Spain_ from the library and really like a lot
of it but don't have time to write about it now, wait a day or two...)
scott
response 44 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 5 13:30 UTC 2000

The "Dirty Dozen BRass Band" is more of a funk band using brass instruments.
carson
response 45 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 5 17:40 UTC 2000

(I ended up pulling out covers of old Jelly Roll Morton tunes. I would
have liked to have played some covers of Joe "King" Oliver, but I
couldn't find any on CD; the public radio station rid itself of turntables
a few weeks before I began working there. I also found a couple of New
Orleans-specific works whose names I can't recall at the moment.)

(I did play three non-N.O. tunes: Ella & Louis, "Summertime"; Bob James,
"Nautilus"; Dave Brubeck Quartet, "Take Five.")
goose
response 46 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 9 22:01 UTC 2000

another jazz guitarist to check out (re:way back there) is Django Reinhart(sp)
oddie
response 47 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 11 06:08 UTC 2000

'Reinhardt', IIRC.

So, _Sketches of Spain_: an album of Spanish classical music and folk tunes,
including a reworking of the middle movement of Rodrigo's Concierto de
Aranjuez, with Miles taking the guitar part on trumpet. Actually, I don't
think that's the best piece on the album; it doesn't stay completely true to
the spirit of the original (especially at the points where the orchestral
backing goes into a swing rhythm behind Davis' solos). But the solos themselves
are really good, and the other cuts on the album (apart from a march piece 
whose rigid rhythm just annoys me -- fortunately it's short) are great. 
Probably my favorite track is the final one, which is of a similar length to
"Concierto" but quite a bit more free-form.

Anyway, today, without returning _Sketches of Spain_, I checked out vol. 2 of
Coltrane's "Complete 1961 Village Vanguard recordings" (the only volume that
was there --  I have given up trying to find specific CDs at the library and
now just check out whatever looks good; unfortunately most of their best CDs
get stolen as the anti-theft system doesn't work). I personally would consider
this Free jazz, at least as far as the soloing style goes, but as it is firmly
anchored in swing rhythm and (most of the time) scales or chords, it is much
more understandable than Coleman. Two of the tracks (of those I have heard so
far) sound more or less like the recordings on Atlantic's _Best of John
Coltrane_, but the ones that made the greatest impression on me were the first
and third. The first track's head sounds very much like the written-out breaks
in Coleman's _Free Jazz_ -- no discernible beat, oddly random-sounding melody;
when the solos begin it seems to be returning to the realm of straight modal
jazz, but the squawks, trills, and virtuosic runs over the horn's whole range
that Coltrane produces make it something much more wild and strange. (The 
playing of the bassist & drummer, including an extended bass solo, is 
incredible too). The third track, appropriately titled _India_, opens with the
drummer playing something that *almost* sounds like a swing beat, except that
it's either in an odd time signature or in no time signature at all; then
suddenly there's an unexpected metallic note in the right channel -- some 
classical Indian instrument, I'm sure, though I couldn't tell you its name;
a few bars later, the bass enters, and then a little later begins  a solo on
a horn that sounds more like an oboe than a saxophone, though I'm not sure
an oboe is what it is. There's also unusual-sounding backing from a couple more
horns, and a solo that I think is either a clarinet or a bass clarinet. 
Awesome track. Awe-inspiring record.


question: this CD doesn't have any liner booklet for some reason, so I don't 
know who the players were for this session. I'd suspect Scott LaFaro or maybe
Charlie Haden on bass, just because the solos sound so much like those on
_Free Jazz_, but it might also be someone else playing in that style. My best
guess for pianist would be Wyn Kelly (because Coltrane recorded with him in
1960), but again I could be completely wrong. Possibly Eric Dolphy as one of
the other horn players. I dunno. Does anyone else?

orinoco
response 48 of 65: Mark Unseen   Mar 11 21:26 UTC 2000

On _Giant Steps_ (1960 also), he plays with Tommy Flanagan, Cedar Walton, and
Wynton Kelly.  So if you're gonna go by what he was up to at the time, it
could be any of those three.  i.e. I don't know.

I'm still trying to bend my ears around Giant Steps.  It's fascinating stuff,
but I find it very tiring to listen to -- I tend to prefer more melodic solos
is most of it.  You definitely seem to have more of an ear for the angular
stuff than I do.  I suspect if I'd been of a proper old-fart age in 1960,
I'd've been one of those people that jazz was dead etc. etc. etc.
(Actually, if I'd been of a proper old-far age in the 60s, I'd've been ranting
against the Beatles and the Stones and have no clue who Coltrane was, I
imagine.  But close enough.)
stacie
response 49 of 65: Mark Unseen   Jun 21 13:44 UTC 2000

*giggle*
http://www.riffage.com/Features/Features/Metheny_KennyG/0,4780,0,00.html

---
Metheny Gets Medieval on Kenny G
by Jim Willcox

If you thought confrontational exchanges between musicians were confined 
to more aggressive musical genres like rap, rock or heavy metal, think 
again. Recently, jazz guitarist Pat Metheny teed off on new age 
saxophonist Kenny G, (full name Kenny Gorelick -- Ed.) calling his 
playing "lame-ass" and "wimped out" in a posting on his website
(http://www.patmethenygroup.com).
                    
The controversy, which started when Metheny cautioned his fans that not 
all music classified as jazz was, in fact, jazz, pointed out Kenny G's 
music as an example, saying the saxophonist played "the dumbest music on 
the planet." Of course, Metheny was then asked by visitors to expound 
on his feelings toward his top-selling contemporary.

Rather than backtracking, Metheny plowed ahead with a full-scale assault 
on Kenny G's abilities in general, but taking particular offense at 
Kenny G's recent electronically engineered duet with the late Louis 
Armstrong. Metheny, who believes that Kenny G's overdubbing on 
Armstrong's song was a desecration of his musical legacy, called the 
track an example of "musical necrophilia." Metheny said he though it 
"weird" when Natalie Cole did it with her father, Nat King Cole, and 
"bizarre" when Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday, but added, "But 
we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who 
are roughly on the same level of artistic accomplishment."
                  
Then Metheny really let loose. "When Kenny G decided that it was 
appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the 
greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, 
jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, f*cked up 
playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser 
ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in 
one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused (sic) 
musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit 
all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have 
risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years, 
developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis 
Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing 
lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by 
default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with 
improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point 
in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed 
about - and afraid of. We ignore this - 'let it slide' - at our own 
peril."

Metheny wasn't quite done, however, saying the only reason for Kenny G 
doing something "inherently wrong - on both human and musical terms" was 
for record sales and money. As a result, Metheny called for a boycott of 
Kenny G's albums and concerts. Metheny finished by taking music critics 
to task for not writing about the issue, and adding "everything I said 
here is exactly the same as what I would say to Gorelick if I ever saw 
him in person. And if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he 
WILL get a piece of my mind (and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his 
head.)"

In a subsequent post to the responses he received, Metheny said that he 
actually wouldn't be hitting anyone with a guitar "despite the fact that 
El Kabong WAS probably my first major guitar influence as a kid."

Metheny acknowledged he was surprised by how much notice "my little rant 
on this topic" has generated in the press, and was disappointed that 
"controversy has the chance to 'win' over musical substance" in what 
gets discussed. "I wish the actual playing and writing could generate 
(this) type of discussion" As a final aside, Metheny jokingly said he 
suggested to an animator at MTV's "Celebrity Death Match" that they 
arrange a bout between Kenny G and the ghost of Louis Armstrong "to 
settle this for once and for all!"
happyboy
response 50 of 65: Mark Unseen   Jun 21 14:16 UTC 2000


oh gawd that was beautiful!


stacie
response 51 of 65: Mark Unseen   Jun 21 14:28 UTC 2000

  Makes you want to weep doesn't it? *weep*   ;)
otaking
response 52 of 65: Mark Unseen   Jun 21 16:54 UTC 2000

I have a LOT of respect for Pat Metheny now.
cyklone
response 53 of 65: Mark Unseen   Jun 21 19:42 UTC 2000

I always have
oddie
response 54 of 65: Mark Unseen   Jun 28 05:15 UTC 2000

I know nothing about Pat Metheny. Well, except that he plays guitar. Would
any of you Pat metheny fans like to point me towards a good album of his?

I got "Bitches Brew" on CD about a month ago. (which reminds me, I have
to pay them for it before they get peevish and send me something I don't
want...). Anyway, the more I listen to it the more inexplicable I find the
violently negative response that it received from jazz critics of the day.
(One of the books I read for that jazz research paper last year referred to
it as "a sad plea for attention") (getting the cause and effect mixed up, as
"Brew" was the record that started the fusion trend, not an attempt to
keep up with it) The music is incredibly complex and multifaceted; it's no
exaggeration when the blurb on the CD back says something like "by turns 
churning and contemplative, airy and grounded, structured and free..."
And it's much too simplistic to label it "jazz-rock," for that matter,
as it has influences from many different musical forms (including, 
incidentally, some of the best ideas of Coleman's Free jazz, like the 
collective improvisation that replaces sharply differentiated round-robin
solos -- John McLaughlin is particularly adept at this).

That said, I'm starting to agree with Orinoco's comment that most other fusion
isn't so good (in resp #2 or so). Having heard quite a lot more fusion 
recently, I can say that none of it has quite the "oceanic depth" (another
blurb quote) of "Bitches Brew." Most of it is rather one-dimensional...
Mahavishnu Orchestra was quite good, although I'm not too fond of JM's 
extreme use of distortion on some songs, and the long guitar solo on the 
first track from Lost Trident Sessions seemed not to really go anywhere for 
all its speed. (The concluding blues-inflected section of that track was 
lovely, though). Also probably I shouldn't evaluate Mahavishnu on the strength
of a "previously unreleased" album (I have heard the others at someone else's
house but *listened* to them...).

BTW, Orinoco, why do you hate JM's solo records? I heard "My Goal's Beyond"
(reissued on CD, incorrectly as "My Goals Beyond") last week and have
decided I'll have to get it. It's an acoustic record with several Mahavishnu
players on it (Jerry Goodman, Billy Cobham, and one other I think...). The
first side is very Indian-influenced with sitar and tabla backing along with
the bass and drums, the second mostly solo guitar renditions of jazz standards.
Actually the second side has quite a classical "tone color" which I liked a
lot.

oddie
response 55 of 65: Mark Unseen   Jun 29 04:16 UTC 2000

(I agree completely with Pat Metheny's rant about Kenny G, btw, don't know
how I forgot to mention that..)
(and thank you Stacie for posting something else to this item, it makes me
feel a little less like it's a lost cause ;)
Oh, and I just noticed that the last line of the second-to-last paragraph
in my previous response should say exactly the opposite of what it does:
"but haven't *listened* to them..."
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