response 300 of 372:

Jun 18 20:56 UTC 2002

Wiccans *don't* run around naked in public?  

(instantly loses interest in Wicca)

response 302 of 372:

Jun 18 23:11 UTC 2002

Buddhists?!  I thought we were NUDISTS?

response 306 of 372:

Jun 19 18:00 UTC 2002

The cross section would be as terrifying and gratifying as attending a 
nude Mass.  Of course, with ann the standing, sitting and genuflecting, 
Mass might be worse.  And don't get me started on nude Baptists.

At the risk of starting a philosophical debate, Bru, "evil" is a 
relative term.  We start believing something is good or sinister because 
we are taught that that is the way it is.  It's the nurture side of the 
"nature versus nurture" debate.  Something is labeled as evil based upon 
the societal interpretation of what is good and evil.  In general 
Americans see cannibalism as rather grotesque and depraved.  But there 
are still societies today that practice ritualized cannibalism, and see 
it as a sign of respect to their ancestors that have passed on.

No one here thinks you have no right to your opinion.  However, brighn 
is right.  It is a first Amendment Issue.  Someone has the right to 
invoke Satan in a public forum as much as any Christian gets to invoke 
the name of their god.  The same thing with Druids, Shamanic groups and 
Wiccans.

And I must agree with Orinoco.  Age of a given religion does not degrade 
its spiritual impact.  It has everything to do with the people involved.  
If it is getting people to think beyond themselves, connect with others, 
and change their lives, how any less legitimate is it than a 
two-thousand year old religion with millions of believers?

response 308 of 372:

Jun 20 05:37 UTC 2002

The statement about druids has to do with the fact that many of them "claim"
to have knowledge going back to past druidic times.  They don't.  The druids
died out long ago.  We don't know who the people who built stonehenge
worshipped, or how.  But the druids claim it to be their place.  Fact is, it
was built long before the original Druids were around.

Wiccans.  I dson;t know what or who wiccans worship other than from the
reports in the media and several novels and books.  Oh!  and some discussions
on here.  They seem fairly benign.

I also know people who worship dryads, believe in elvs, adn wonder at the
mystical canotations to be found in Lord of the Rings or the Star Wars saga.
You think we should give them time to speak as to their religion?

FAct is, many places are still very racially or culturally isolated.  They
want to hear about their religion at their festivals and celebrations.  Be
they Catholic, protestant, jewish, italian, Irish, Buddhist, shiite, or sunni.
they should be allowed to have whatever speaker they want at their gatherings,
whether it be in public school or on the lawn of the city courthouse.

And if my opinion of the satanists is wrong, then they need to get out there
and do a better job of selling their religion to the people who make up this
country.

response 310 of 372:

Jun 20 13:11 UTC 2002

Re #308: I disagree.  I don't care how insular the community is, it's still
not okay for the government to provide a forum for one religious group at
the expense of others.  For one thing, it *keeps* communities like that
insular by sending a not-so-subtle message to people of other faiths that
they aren't welcome.

response 312 of 372:

Jun 20 14:43 UTC 2002

#308.1> Not all Druids claim to have knowledge that goes back that far. The
ones I'm friends with are realistic about their knowledge base. Furthermore,
there's a religion that celebrates the birth of their savior on a day that
nearly every religious historian roundly dismisses as wrong, and yet there
are no attempts to correct that celebration. So if historical inaccuracy is
your reason for invalidating a religion, there goes Christianity.
 
#308.2> "They seem fairly benign." This is especially laughable given your
denouncement of Druids. Some Wiccans believe that Wicca is the Oldest
Religion, it predates Judaism, that Greek and Roman pagans were afraid of
Wiccans, and that there was once a female-focussed universal religion that
saw no violence or hatred. And you reject Druidism, and think Wicca is "fairly
benign."
 
#308.3> Um, many Wiccans worship dryads and elves. Those are important aspect
of many European folk religions. As for Star Wars and LOTR, I don't know of
any serious religions that evolve solely off those sources, but if there were,
what's your problem with that? Who made you arbiter of what qualifies as a
religion that people might be interested in?
 
#308.4> The Supreme Court disagrees with you.
 
#308.5> Your opinion of Druids is wrong, and they have many websites and
informational sources. Your opinion of Wiccans is wrong, and they not only
have sveral presses actively generating material, as well as a preponderance
of websites, but they also have several pools of people doing talk shows and
other media circuits to correct misperceptions. Given that you have not
availed yourself of the opportunities to learn more about groups that you see
as "weird" or "mostly harmless" (apologies to Douglas Adams), what is the
likelihood that you would seriously, fairly, and unbaisedly avail yourself
of the opportunities to learn more about groups that you see as "evil"? Could
the fault of ignorance possibly lie with you, Bruce, and not with the
Satanists?

response 314 of 372:

Jun 20 18:02 UTC 2002

I would like to have seen the looks on their faces!

response 316 of 372:

Jun 20 19:59 UTC 2002

But we don't come out of the womb knowing what is good or evil, those 
are concepts we are taught.  Certainly if you were to have been brought 
up in Society A that promotes certain types of behavior seen in Society 
B as immoral, there's a greater chance that you, too, would would at 
least question what you have leaned in Society A if exposed to Society 
B.  That does not mean that someone from Society A cannot come up with 
that concept on their own, but where would that come from then?  The 
concepts of good and evil have long been subject to individual and 
societal interpretation.  What I may see as passable can to someone be 
absolutely depraved.  I do believe that there is good and evil out 
there, but also realize that my belief in what is good or evil is not 
fixed, nor is in agreement with every single individual out there.

Brighn, just how dated is the belief system of "modern" druids?

One other point . . . Bru, how much less legitimate is the belief in 
elves, dryads and the like, of which we only have books and pictures to 
the belief in Jesus, of whom we only have  . . . books and pictures?

response 320 of 372:

Jun 20 22:34 UTC 2002

It's a little hard to talk about what the wiccans/druids are like, 
because they don't have a nice convenient Pope to officially declare 
what is and is not proper in their religions.  To a large extent, each 
small group invents it's own religion.  They communicate and share 
ideas, so some coherence appears, but most statements you can make 
about them are both true and false, depending on the particular people 
involved.

Having said that, I'll proceed to make some statements that are both 
true and false.  I think a lot of wiccans are people who raised in the 
christian church, but as adults grew disillusioned with the church, 
while still feeling a need for faith and community rituals.  Wicca 
offers a chance to invent your own rituals and prayers, and perform 
them yourself.  I think it's neat to see people that engaged in their 
own faith - figuring out how they should worship instead of just 
worshipping they way they were taught.  I like that a lot, and I might 
be tempated to get involved, except that I personally have no 
particular yen for ritual worship.  I wasn't raised religious and don't 
feel a lack of it.

Both the wiccans and the druids revived the names of old enemies of the 
christian church to provide a framework for their religions.  So it's 
not too surprising that some christians see their mere existance as a 
slap in the face.  It's kind of clear that the founding principle of 
these faiths is "we are not christians".  But this is only to be 
expected in a society so dominated by christianity.  For many people, 
the first step in independent religous thought is realizing that they 
are not christians.

The satanists are a more extreme example.  I suspect they exist mainly 
just to tweak christianities nose, and that during rites they spend all 
their time wishing their was a christian around to offend.  They are 
pretty much just like neo-Nazis.

response 322 of 372:

Jun 21 00:58 UTC 2002

re:  "#311 (jmsaul) : I promise you, the one Jewish family in a town full of
Southern Baptists *doesn't* want to hear about Jesus at government-sponsored
function

But, even assuming that you are correct, they may be very willing to tolerate
it for a number of very good reasons.

response 324 of 372:

Jun 21 01:29 UTC 2002

1.  It is not always proper for the minority to impose its will
upon the majority.

2.  It is preferable to live among people who profess a love of
G-d than to live in a community without discernable positive values.