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Grex > Coop13 > #376: The problems with Grex, e-mail and spam | |
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spooked
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response 277 of 480:
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Dec 14 03:01 UTC 2006 |
I think you miss the point - I don't have to prove anything to anyone.
This is about politics, and highlighting their sad plague here. If the
staff was a 10th as transparent as me, Grex would not be in this
political stagmire.
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cyklone
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response 278 of 480:
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Dec 14 04:13 UTC 2006 |
And speaking of quagmires, aren't we jumping the gun here with all this
process improvement stuff? I mean, what is the official grex methodology for
determining who should implement a process improvement plan?
<insert ;) here for the humor-impaired>
Anyway, I think tod's and cmcgee's comments are helpful inasmuch as the
inject some well-needed perspective from people who have actual work
skills that go beyond "I write code, damn it!"
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cross
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response 279 of 480:
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Dec 14 05:12 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #273; If you think it'd be useful, I'd be happy to talk to you.
Shoot me a private email and I'll send you a phone number.
Regarding #276; That's part of the problem. It's my opinion that
refactoring of code is a big no-no on grex; I tried to start an effort to do
this with the grexsoft project, but I was the only one who did anything on
it. Ah well. Anyway, a lot of the attitude is, ``if it ain't broke, don't
fix it.'' Or, ``even if you can make it better, don't if it's someone's pet
project.''
For example I really felt - and still feel - that switching to the
system-standard password hash was and is a good idea. I proposed this, and
put forth technical arguments for why I felt it should happen. I never got
a solid technical argument for *not* doing it: it was basically FUD, and
despite addressing those technical points that *were* raised, no action was
ever taken. Honestly, I was left - as were several other people - with
the impression that it didn't happen because Marcus didn't want it to
because the password hash grex uses now was his baby. See item #29 in
garage for details (note also that Marcus hadn't logged in in nearly a year
until he logged in to comment on that item). Actually, I think reading that
item is pretty illuminating.
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spooked
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response 280 of 480:
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Dec 14 05:38 UTC 2006 |
I think it is beyond repair, when other staff cannot admit the blatant
political bullshit that occurs here.
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spooked
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response 281 of 480:
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Dec 14 06:42 UTC 2006 |
I am applying to have my account deleted.
Good luck sorting out your bullshit. I tried my best.
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mcnally
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response 282 of 480:
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Dec 14 08:03 UTC 2006 |
re #281: Thanks for providing, in your recent comments, an excellent
example of what Grex does NOT need in a staff member -- a personal
grudge against the other volunteers on the system and an unwillingness
to participate at all unless one gets one's own way. Frankly we've
got way too much of that already.
I've tried to stay out of this because I think that there's a lot
to be said for some of the points Dan and Mic have been raising
but I also think they're ignoring some important practical and
political considerations (and Mic's complaints about "political
bullshit" aside, working well as part of a group ALWAYS involves
politics and compromise.)
I've also not wanted to speak ill of STeve, who's done a lot for
the system, possibly as much or more than anyone else. I'm
mindful, too, of the many important early contributions from Marcus,
without whom there very well might not be a Grex. However, I
definitely think there's a case to be made that their influence
over the system is stalling progress.
Given the level of emotional investment some of the principles
have put into the issue, I haven't been wild about the prospect
that by sharing my honest opinions about the situation that I might
provoke them ALL to turn and attack me for the things I'm about
to say. But I'll go ahead and have my say anyway and leave it up
to the rest of you to decide whether you think I've got a point.
--
First off, let's state the obvious: Grex DOES have a staff problem.
We're stalled on several major needed technical projects that would
greatly benefit the users of the system. And even if we were
totally happy with the current state of the system, which I think
most of us aren't, we still face a problem in the future which
needs to be addressed NOW because practically speaking we're just
one or two staff departures away from having real issues continuing
to operate. What happens if STeve gets offered a dream job somewhere
away from Ann Arbor, or if John Remmers finds something else he
would prefer to spend his time doing? Bruce Howard is halfway
across the world and spending what used to be staff time with his
wife and daughter (as he should.) Jan Wolter is also spending
time with his family and on his business and is only intermittently
active. Joe Gelinas and Walter Cramer are still involved with
Grex but not very active as staff these days, Steve Weiss has
logged in only five times since the end of August, and Kip de Graaf
is still in the staff group but doesn't appear to have logged in
since February of 2005.
Now, on to the less obvious: Grex's board and staff culture
discourage staff participation from new volunteers -- unintentionally,
I suspect, but the effect is still pronounced. It's hard to get
buy-in from the board or the existing staff to make major changes
to the system, even when they have the potential to benefit many
users of the system. The board is extremely conservative in its
approach to new technology initiatives, unwilling to spend any
money on hardware without lengthy (and usually fruitless) debate,
and in the end virtually always defers to STeve's opinion, meaning
that projects never proceed unless STeve agrees with them and
STeve's reaction to projects is often influenced buy his personal
friendship or antipathy towards the person advocating the project.
Another thing I want to address is the Marcus factor. As I said
above, Marcus's contributions in the early days were key to the
establishment of the system. Now, however, we've moved beyond the
early days of the system and Marcus's role in managing the system
has vanished almost completely and in his absence we are saddled
with technology decisions made based on his own personal preferences
that nobody else seems to want to support. The only time he seems
to surface is when people are discussing reversing one of his
decisions and moving forward with technology preferred by the rest
of us and then he only sticks around until the effort to override
his decision and move forward runs out of steam and we continue
limping along with the status quo.
--
OK, those are my basic complaints. Tomorrow, after people have
had a chance to chew on part one, I'll post part two of my
"manifesto", outlining what I think Grex's staff needs really
are and some ideas for how we might proceed.
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mary
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response 283 of 480:
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Dec 14 12:52 UTC 2006 |
I've known a good portion of those on staff for a while now and I've
attended a slew of board meetings and I'd like to share my impression of
the State of Grex.
We're doing pretty well. That's the summary for those who don't want to
read on.
If disks crashed tomorrow we'd have folks there to help out. Staff would
put aside what was going on in their busy lives, maybe not tonight, or
even tomorrow, but we'd get fixed. Folks without a lot of money would be
offering what they could if we needed it. For the most part most folks
are quietly doing good things for Grex in the background. But it's
difficult to appreciate the quiet jewels when there is so much screaming,
ego implosion and gnashing of teeth going on, by a scant few.
Grex has weathered a lot. We are exisiting in a whole different
environment than the one in which we started. We have issues that need to
be dealt with, such as spam and security and growing our community
(including staff). We're nibbling away at those issues at present. And
frankly, I'd rather nibble at a good solution than panic and start down a
course that will make things a whole lot worse.
In terms of the personality issues mentioned by Mike and others, well,
Marcus and STeve may have had too much influence in the past but that's
not been the case recently. Hindsight is always so clear. And I'm not
going to get into blame.
In terms of helping out our present staff I'd proabably not go the white
board and interview route quite yet. Mostly, I think they need to simply
meet more often. When you get 'em together it's hard to shut them up -
the ideas (and frustrations) flow. And this group hardly ever agrees
about anything but they still respect each other. One or two people do
not call the shots - it's a group think with emphasis put on the person
with the most expertise in whatever area is being tackled. It's a team
that needs a little slack in their personal lives, time together to talk,
and maybe a little less flogging and a few more words of encouragement.
My 2 cents.
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cmcgee
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response 284 of 480:
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Dec 14 13:03 UTC 2006 |
Mary, I was not aware that the local members of staff ever had face-to-face
meetings with everyone present.
If one person in not part of the decision making process, she or he can
usually unilaterally stop implementation of a decision until her/his ideas
have been presented and included. This is especially true of a team that has
worked together for a long time.
How do non-local members participate in these decision-making meetings?
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cross
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response 285 of 480:
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Dec 14 14:07 UTC 2006 |
They don't.
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slynne
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response 286 of 480:
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Dec 14 14:33 UTC 2006 |
Indeed. I think that one of the problems staff has is that the current
system works very well when everyone is local. But everyone isnt local
anymore. I am not sure what the answer is. I know that Grex owns a
speaker phone so it is possible for at least one non-local person to
phone into a staff meeting. That might be a start.
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keesan
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response 287 of 480:
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Dec 14 14:56 UTC 2006 |
Is anyone currently working on putting back newuser?
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mary
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response 288 of 480:
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Dec 14 15:06 UTC 2006 |
Our staff have the technical savvy to connect real time, via voice and
video. Mostly, it's the time zone thing that's difficult. If it's seven
o'clock at night here it can be five in the morning there. Yuck. The
staff conference is available 24/7 but that's not the most robust way of
sharing ideas. Again, issues, but not insurmountable ones.
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cross
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response 289 of 480:
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Dec 14 15:13 UTC 2006 |
Right. It's hard to feel particularly involved when you're just informed
that decisions were made a staff meeting the night before that you didn't
even know was going to happen and you certainly weren't part of the loop.
Of grex's staff, for the several years I was on staff, the only person's
voice I ever heard was Jan's, when I called him to ask what the root
password was.
Despite what Mary says, I *don't* think grex is doing particularly well
right now. The membership has halved over the past several years,
reliability has been a problem, and there's a general air of stagnation. I
was talking to another grexer last night who said about the system and
community that it was ``in its last throws. They won't survive.'' (No, it
wasn't anyone who's weighed in on this conversation.)
Is grex in immediate danger of shutting its doors? No, but is that the
metric by which one judges *health*? ``Well, they're not dead just yet, so
they're doing pretty good'' doesn't sound quite right to me. But I think
grex will die an assymptotic death. Sure, if a disk fails someone will go
change it. If there's a major financial catastrophe, someone will step in
and bail us out. The same core group of 20-30 people will keep grex running
for a long while, indeed. But, they'll more or less be by themselves as
other people leave and new people stop in, say hi once or twice, and
disappear because grex doesn't offer anything unique they can't get from
somewhere else (or they're just interested in running 30 copies of udp.pl or
attempting to send millions of spam messages...). So the community will
shrink to a point where it's the same people talking about the same things
in the same way over and over again...do you see where I'm going here?
I guess the *real* issue is what is the purpose of grex? If it's meant to
be a clubhouse for the founders and other principle members, then say so.
There's certainly nothing *wrong* with that; plenty of people do similar
things. And if that's the case, the rosy picture that Mary paints is
perfectly accurate. On the other hand, if it's meant to be something more,
then some things have got to change and the situation isn't as positive as
she makes it out to be.
That's my take.
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cross
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response 290 of 480:
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Dec 14 15:15 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #288; Technical savvy isn't the same as desire or will.
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keesan
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response 291 of 480:
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Dec 14 15:57 UTC 2006 |
The conferences are just as busy as they ever were, and grex has been up far
more of the time than it used to be, but newuser is not working, which seems
like the most urgent problem right now, not new hardware. Followed by a
working spam filter for people who don't want to copy mine (or don't know how
to copy anything), and getting rid of unused mail accounts so the mail
partition does not keep filling up. What do other people think is most
important?
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kingjon
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response 292 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:09 UTC 2006 |
As I recall, newuser was removed as a stopgap measure to keep the people who
were running the denial of service attacks from coming back until some solution
to that problem had been hammered out. I hope this doesn't become like the
"Offsite mailing privileges for new user accounts are temporarily restricted"
(from the MOTD, dated January 11).
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keesan
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response 293 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:24 UTC 2006 |
Is anyone currently working on newuser? If not, would Cross like to
volunteer?
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cross
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response 294 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:25 UTC 2006 |
Even if I volunteered (like I volunteered to work on email) I'm not sure it
would do much good.
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cross
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response 295 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:28 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #291; With respect to the conferences, they're just as busy as ever
with the same 20 or 30 people who regularly post to them. Like I said, if
that's what people want, then just say that. There's nothing wrong with grex
being a playground for those who put time and effort into it. But if that's
the case, then why is newuser or the spam problem urgent?
Sindi, why do *you* think that the newuser issue is the most urgent problem?
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spooked
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response 296 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:50 UTC 2006 |
Dan, you are a clever person and do not need this bullshit in your life.
Do yourself a favour and take your first-rate services and vision to
better places.
The following quote appropriately summaries my account of the
increasing (over time) problems with Grex staff (from nearly 10 years
first-hand observation inside the spectre):
'Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes
decide everything.' (Josef Stalin)
Just like in a totalitarian state, very little gets done. And, what is
actually done is rarely in the best interests of the people the leader/s
purport to be interested in. Furthermore, there is so much indoctrination
that even once good people are unawares of their blindness, foolishness,
and lies.
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rcurl
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response 297 of 480:
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Dec 14 17:23 UTC 2006 |
(Newusers are the lifeblood of the system?)
Cross asked "I guess the *real* issue is what is the purpose of grex?"
According to the Articles (Coop, Item 1):
"The Corporation is organized for such charitable and educational purposes
as may qualify it for exemption from the federal income tax under Section
501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended (or the
corresponding provisions of any future United States internal revenue
law.) More specifically, such purposes include, but are not limited to,
the advancement of public education and scientific endeavor through
interaction with computers, and humans via computers, using computer
conferencing. Further purposes include the exchange of scientific and
technical information about the various aspects of computer science, such
as operating systems, computer networks, and computer programming."
Is Grex doing those things and, if so, how well and if not well, what
should it do to meet those purposes?
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slynne
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response 298 of 480:
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Dec 14 17:28 UTC 2006 |
I think that it is likely that Grex will die off sometime in the
future. I like all the discussion in the conferences here and that is
my main reason for being here. I would love it if we could get some new
users or even some former old users to check in. Certainly, if we dont
get some new people online, we will die off.
But I am not entirely sure of how to do that. I occasionally speak to
people who used to be active on Grex and/or Mnet and they give all
kinds of reasons for why they no longer log on here. Most of the things
mentioned to me are things completely outside of Grex's control.
None of that has anything to do with the current staff issues except
that if we dont get newuser up and running, we are essentially making
the death happen faster. I havent talked to a single person who doesnt
understand that though.
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cross
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response 299 of 480:
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Dec 14 17:43 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #296; Oh, I don't know. I'm not ready to throw in the towel just
yet. But to each their own.
Regarding #297; I suspect that in a narrowly defined sense, grex is doing
that. There are a core group of 20 to 30 users who, as I said, will keep
grex alive. But I really think that claiming the grex is furthering the
public knowledge or advancing science are stretching reality at best. Grex
is quickly becoming a provencial backwater; are there people doing things
*for* grex? Sure. But what is grex doing *for* anyone else? I think that
the criticisms that grex has no real vision are perfectly valid.
The articles of incorporation articulate a purpose, but it's rather vague.
I guess what I'm asking is narrower in focus; where I ask what is the
purpose of grex, feel free to substitute, what is the *character* of grex?
Is it a system that is all-inclusive, really making an effort to be relevant
on the modern Internet, or a playground for that same 20 or 30 users who
have been here all along? The answer to that question really clarifies
where the priorities for the system lie. If it's the former, then there are
some significant problems that need to be addressed; in particular, if new
users are really the lifeblood of the system, then how come there isn't more
of an effort to encourage them to become involved? If the latter, then I'll
agree with Mary Remmers that everything is peachy, but don't be surprised
that there aren't a lot of people interested in playing.
I think that a lot of the grex population really, truly, strongly believes
in grex, which is great, but some of them also aren't willing to look at
themselves to see if maybe, just maybe, there isn't a cultural problem on
the system. Sometimes, belief can be so firm that one blinds oneself to
other realities, even though someone is screaming at them that things aren't
the way they see them. It seems to me that any attempt to say otherwise is
interpreted as a viscious attack against something they hold dear. There's
little objectivity around here, and I think that is a problem that's just
going to grow over time.
Let me rephrase the problem in a totally different way: has anyone stopped
to think about why there aren't more new users who become part of the
community? You'd think as the total number of Internet users increases,
you'd see - perhaps not a corresponding increase - but certainly not a
decrease of new users. So why has membership decreased? And why can't
people even consider that maybe it's a problem with the way the grex
community operates?
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cross
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response 300 of 480:
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Dec 14 17:50 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #298; Is there any one reason that pops up more frequently than
another?
You know, look at SDF: it's a *lot* more successful than grex. And part of
that is that they do a *really* good job of being more inclusive of the
community. They even solicit users to submit tracks of their bands' music
for some sort of comp CD!
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tod
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response 301 of 480:
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Dec 14 18:27 UTC 2006 |
I think Mike outlined the major problems very well in #282
I pretty much withdrew from the Board election after seeing the same
"status-quo" types throwing their hats in to get re-elected (of which I'm sure
they will.) I don't see the point in trying to help or influence an
organization that doesn't want it. Its laughable that Mary is content with
the "somebody who doesn't have much but is a local will always be around to
fix Grex" because that is highly elitist and typical of Grex's "problem" in
general. (Its a diplomatic way of saying: Thanks for offering but we don't
want any help.) One of these days, Grex will need to take the Ann Arbor
training wheels off and learn how to operate with a virtual geographically
global staff else it will become defunct when all current staff finally find
a life off Grex.
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