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| Author |
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| 25 new of 62 responses total. |
tsty
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response 27 of 62:
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Jan 8 02:32 UTC 1997 |
it would seem, to me and soem others above, that :ignore <asshole> is
the party perfect (or is that pluperfect?) instruction for the current
and future partyadms to BROADCAST when some <asshole> decides to ask
for cock or cunt.
being who i am, and with the accumulated background i have, it is fairly
easy for me to drive <assholes> away from party .... politely <<GG!!>>, ahhh,
yes, i said "politely."
hey, it;'s only ascii, folks.
now also realize that until grex opened the pseudo ttys, there was,
virtually, *no* party activity. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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jenna
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response 28 of 62:
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Jan 8 03:13 UTC 1997 |
I don't see why its so difficult to use ignore, that's exaclty what
it was created for, eh?
,.
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janc
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response 29 of 62:
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Jan 8 03:56 UTC 1997 |
Random comments:
Back a year ago, shortly after I became root here, I used to blow occasional
annoying people out of party -- that is, people whose only goal in
being there was clearly to be as disruptive as possible. Valerie told
me that there had been a discussion about this sometime in the past
and it had been decided that we shouldn't do such things. So I stopped.
Ryan was around when I did this, so I probably set a bit of a bad example.
Still, if it's not OK for staff to do this, it's probably not OK for
other people either.
It's kind of an issue of power. The more power you have, the more
difficult ethical issues you have to deal with. Ryan has more power in
this environemnt than other users not so much because he is partyadm
(no partyadm priveledges were used here), but because he is much better
at figuring things out than most people. If you have the power to
blow people of the system, but they don't have the power to do the same
to you, you automatically have more responsibility than they do. Lots
of world leaders have problems learning to use power responsibly. Not
too amazing that some other people do too.
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steve
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response 30 of 62:
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Jan 8 03:59 UTC 1997 |
Ankh, one of the "founding" principals of Grex is that we not
demand verification of people who wander in. We do for Internet
usage, being different, but not general use of Grex itself. This
stems from the people who started Grex, who are pretty radical about
the concept of "open" systems. With that openness comes problems,
like what you experienced with the tel bombing. So it means that
more novel ways of dealing with noisy people have to be excercised.
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valerie
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response 31 of 62:
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Jan 8 05:03 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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scg
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response 32 of 62:
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Jan 8 05:56 UTC 1997 |
I think I've used root to knock somebody out of part once. In that case, the
person was entering garbage so fast that anything anybody else typed was
scrolling off the screen before it was readable. Telling people to use ignore
would have been better, but a lot of the people in party couldn't see me
telling them to do that.
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ajax
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response 33 of 62:
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Jan 8 07:42 UTC 1997 |
Rereading Ryan's earlier responses, he seems rather careful about what
he says he didn't do. He didn't say that he had nothing to do with
effectively kicking a user off; he denied using certain techniques that
were suggested. If it turns out he was involved, and he was skirting
the issue, that suggests he knew what he did was inappropriate. I also
sent e-mail to Ryan and staff about this very issue when his appointment
as partyadm was being considered, so ignorance would not be a defense.
The main question I have is what did Ryan do, if anything, involving
Arjun's comings and goings. Hopefully Ryan will clarify this, in light
of the log file excerpt in #15.
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aliz
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response 34 of 62:
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Jan 8 17:27 UTC 1997 |
excuse me???? I have had just about enough of my son being
dissected here in the postings- if this is the place to name and or
trash people you dont like;and have everyone and anyone join in-- hey
then maybe i should start naming names and all of the vulgar things
people have said and done to me. and mabye since i am human too- we
should post my early logs and see some of the misjudgents i made- in
not understanding this system and that lots of kids "hang " here.
Ryan is a 15 yr old kid- and i have dealt with this matter as a parent
as i see fit and i dont feel its everyone on grex's business what i did
or didnt do .Yes, he still has maturing to do- lots of ppl here on
grex * older than *me* also need to show restriant with regards to
*inappropriate behaviors aimed as minors* at times-on an ongoing
basisi!!!, while on line-. If his worse fault- and i believe it is---is
immaturity and using poor judgement in *cyberworld* i will still keep
him thankyou very much. If this is where i should let lose on everyone
and their characters, quirks, personal pevees and whatnot should be
dumped hey just let me know -because we are all human and all make
mistakes. some of us learn thigs at differemnt rates and dif. ways.
by the way - are we all gonna hear some apologizes from the staff
here who have admitted to bouncing ppl off of the system ???? please let
me know. but know this! maligning ryan like this: meeting negative
behaviors with more negative behaviors-- isnt consistently the best way
for others to help modify behaviors to get positive stuff back, in
other words- i dont know many ppl who learn lessons in a positive way
after being treated very negatively.
this is all just so incredible - the grexer response to this- as
time passes and i continue to see my son maligned in this manner- i
tend to start taking it less seriously and see it as a good opportunity
for others to just show poor judgment and immaturity as well. by
the way lest you all feel compelled to trash my parenting- i dont
know an over abundance of parents who go on line to see what their
kids are up to on occassion.
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aliz
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response 35 of 62:
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Jan 8 20:56 UTC 1997 |
In addendum- please note thati have always had great faith in the
staff to deal with issues on grex and have yet to be disappointed. I
feel this is a staff issue, not a free for all
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ajax
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response 36 of 62:
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Jan 8 21:10 UTC 1997 |
Elizabeth, at 15, I'd probably have done the same thing, although
a bit more subtly. I consider that sort of behavior a natural primate
response: if you hate someone, mess with them. Controlling that urge
is part of growing up in our culture.
If Ryan weren't partyadm on Grex, I wouldn't even get into this.
People are always cursing and bugging each other and what not on Grex.
I had complaints about this before he was partyadm, and told people
to turn off their message permissions and try working it out. But as
partyadm, he's something of a representative of Grex, and I expect a
higher standard of responsibility.
One difference with other staff members bouncing people from party
is that they believed it was the appropriate action, and wouldn't
hesitate to tell people what they did and why. It would have looked
a bit better if Ryan had done this. If staff people later learn that
what they did isn't seen as appropriate, they don't do it again. We
have had significant discussions about things staff has done, like
when a couple accounts were disabled. There are rare times when a
root should step in and log someone out or terminate their account.
But what Arjun did wasn't among them, and if someone thought it was,
they should brought to the staff's attention.
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aliz
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response 37 of 62:
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Jan 8 21:23 UTC 1997 |
well at least i know how to use the bbs from my puter now :)
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janc
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response 38 of 62:
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Jan 8 21:24 UTC 1997 |
I basically agree with aliz. Ryan's judgement could have been better, but
I can't say this is a huge awful crime. Being a semi-staff member, he's
going to get more heat than other random users would. Well, that's life.
When you are in a position of responsibility, your behaviour gets watched
more. I think sufficient action has been taken, and we should all get on with
life.
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nephi
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response 39 of 62:
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Jan 9 06:47 UTC 1997 |
I agree with Jan. Ethics are different for a person in power
in the public eye, and it takes some adjusting. Of course,
being dishonest is never good policy. I'm a little sad that
Ryan was dishonest about something he had done. It definitely
implies the guilt that Rob attributes to Ryan, for the reasons
that Rob cites. Public people in positions of power must have
the complete trust of the people with whom they work, and the
people for whom they work.
Of course, I've made mistakes similar to Ryan's, and I believe
that most of the Grex staff members have at one time or another,
so I just hope that something like this doesn't ever happen
again.
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aliz
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response 40 of 62:
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Jan 9 18:16 UTC 1997 |
could some one please explain to me how to list a postin?? i need to
start dealing with and expressing my rights and the ethics and practices
of those who have stepped on my rights -- in general-.. I need to start
disregarding anyone else's right any sort of respect-- if they have
stepped on my toesi need to express that.
I need to begin addressing mr oodracco's poor impulse control and the
fact that i dont think he should be taking to young kids on grex about
wherterh they wear wonder bras or not- esp. if the person syas hey leav
e me alone. also- my children know to stay away from him- so there
fore turn about fair play; olldracc- you stay away from my family
also- with regards to the open system here- i will agrue that people
are attempting to censor my son.--if he knows certain things and wants
to explore and experimenting new ways of using this information i dont
believe that others should feel upset ubout this. perhaps in the zcase
of arjun... i did try to speak with him on mnet one night recently,
about all of this-- check the mnet logs - he said he didnt know what
*I* was talking about- well hum...gosh i think we all should discuss
his lying problem here . also discuss his i thin- poor choice of words
to distinguish between males and females
also let's discuss mel's need for negative attention by instigating all
of this
oh yeah and by the way-- i have been flooded lots by lots of ppl
and also---it seeems that i feel my rights are stepped on when i have to
shut off my tels because someone is calling me "uneducated bitch" un
this was deja.. because i had atypo so im uneducated and abitch to
bbot. sometimes i want to get tels while talking on party for privacy
sake- and im told if bothered- just say mesg N-- because the staff
in general dont feel that unwanted tels and ntalk requests from a place
on the other side of the world is a problem-- well i guess if I* were
granted staff status--i guess some of these clowns would be smart
enough to stay away from me too and therefore -- i would tend to think
that unwanted tels really isnt a big deal.
please tell me how to post these things so that all of grex has the
opportunity to join in here and express themselves about some of the ppl
i hzve mentioned -- please dont stop with wheter they have bothered you
or not- i want to know what you think about their character as a human
being.. i guess i was wrong to think that my son was intitled to the
same "respect " that olladrcca and arjun are being given-- along with
others. i would like to discuss at lenght-- arjun's c---/c--- problem.
Sounds like he inst past certain stadges in his developemnet..b ut
hey let's not make any accomdations for that / lets go
i am very disappointed in you mike- for continueing to discuss my son
here on the posings and ajax-- do you really think i dont know and
have already thought of the things/issues you raised in your last
posting????????? you stepped on my rights because i felt condesenced
to and also felt that an email to me woulbe more appropriate .
esp. since i made my feelings know.
alsok mike-- the use of guilt seems very out of place in the ann
arborian train of thought
boy express yourself it feels goooooooooooood
'
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mary
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response 41 of 62:
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Jan 9 23:16 UTC 1997 |
I'm glad you feel good, mom.
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ajax
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response 42 of 62:
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Jan 9 23:28 UTC 1997 |
Re Jan's #38, "I think sufficient action has been taken...."
I wasn't aware of any actions taken. If I should have been, but
somehow missed it, then I apologize for dwelling on the topic.
The last response I remember from Ryan denied any wrongdoing.
Re Elizabeth's #40
> "and ajax-- do you really think i dont know and have already thought
> of the things/issues you raised in your last posting?"
Honestly, no...that didn't come across in your responses. You asked
a specific question about other staff behavior, and half my post was
answering that.
> "you stepped on my rights because i felt condesenced to and also
> felt that an email to me woulbe more appropriate."
Your response 35, suggesting this is purely a staff issue, slipped in
as I was typing response 36. Sorry if I offend you. I've already
explained why I think this is a valid issue for public discussion.
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e4808mc
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response 43 of 62:
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Jan 10 05:43 UTC 1997 |
Marcus identified two people that he expected to see apologies from. I've
only seen one apology.
Also, would someone explain what criminal prosecutions would cover? Are there
laws that cover our rights to use Grex?
And by the way Elizabeth, as the mother of three boys, 14, 16, and 18, I see
nothing wrong with the Grex village trying to teach Ryan appropriate behavior.
One of my sons is a new soccer referee, and other refs, coaches, players, and
parents are constantly giving him feedback about his judgments.
Some of the feedback is abusive and crude, and I would have expected parents
especially, who can *see* how young he is, to behave more appropriately. But
they don't. That's what it is like to be a ref <shrug>.
What our sons *don't* need is their moms rushing to their defense, in long
emotional tirades. IF they want responsibilities, they need to learn to take
the pressure of making mistakes and being corrected, in public, in front of
lots of people.
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jiffer
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response 44 of 62:
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Jan 10 07:30 UTC 1997 |
sorry to say this.. but... i mean... we really sometimes have a HUGE problems
of harrassment form many wachols on grex in party...
and ignore doesn't always work! *shrug* I have to say that i have never
heard either Ryan1 or Ankh talk that way. so it seems rather odd that they
would do that unles s whey are really being harrassed or seeing someone else
harrassed!
And "freedom of speech" ois supposed to be freedom wihtout the hurting of
others... it seems tht some of these vulgar types just go to far and offend
more then they should.. i wish we could put it in the new user program and
also maybe a mass email to all users that grex isnot a place to yank your
chain on and that this entry should have had more maturity in it!
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aliz
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response 45 of 62:
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Jan 10 07:45 UTC 1997 |
my ears are now closed- i will not write,read, nor will i be lectured
further. im glad you're "hands-off" approach is what your family feels
comfortable and good with e4808mc- good for you. what perhaps *you*
dont understand is that previously *I* have been contacted by the staff
for matters that * as you say * didnt involve me.
Incidently- *you* raise your children and *i* will raise mine thank
you. I have been cooperative with the staff in the past. And yes i am
emotion whether it's about my children -or anything else- it's who i am.
just as *as i perceive* you're "snootiness" is *you*.
by the way- my name is Liz
rob(ajax) thank you for your last response. it helped me. i am sorry if
you and i got off on the wrong foot.
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jiffer
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response 46 of 62:
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Jan 10 07:59 UTC 1997 |
btw: uhm.. when you start to ignore them they send the tels.. i have been
harrassed in tels and then i can't recieve tels form people that i want to
talk to! sorry! that is the use of tels to send private messages not private
harassment
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breeze
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response 47 of 62:
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Jan 10 17:22 UTC 1997 |
Jiffer is right. If you're getting crank phone calls and you take your phone
off the hook, the crank caller can't get through--but neither can anyone else.
What's the point of having the telegram function if we have to constantly turn
it off? The harassment gets so bad that it has to be off *most* of the time.
I suppose the twits have as much of a right to be on Grex as I do. We
apparently can't censor them but they *can* harass us. Um--that's fair. I
guess. (?) I'm sure the staff is doing all they can to remedy this, right?
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janc
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response 48 of 62:
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Jan 10 18:25 UTC 1997 |
We do plan to allow people to selectively turn off telegrams. But it takes
a fair amount of programming to do so, and it may be a while before someone
does it.
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jimj
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response 49 of 62:
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Jan 10 19:40 UTC 1997 |
r: #48 Yes Jan, hence item #37 in this cf
<G>
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kerouac
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response 50 of 62:
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Jan 10 21:12 UTC 1997 |
this is drift, but as long as we are talking about party-- how would
everyone feel about a web interface to the party program? Would party
be overrun if it was web accessible? Or would it make party better and
more diversified? I believe Jan has said that it can be done through
backtalk at some point. It would be interesting!
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scott
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response 51 of 62:
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Jan 11 01:22 UTC 1997 |
Well, we have been discussing Ryan. And justifiably so. We aren't discussing
"Ryan as son of", but "Ryan, staff member". I'm really happy to have seen
how Ryan has gone from troublemaker to staff member. But like the rest of
us, it will take him some adjustments to really get into the being a staffer.
Aliz, I think you are doing a fine job as a parent. But we're talking about
how Ryan handles responsibilities as a Grex staffer, which is very definitely
a Grex staff issue, and because of the "trust" issues is a Coop issue as well.
This is quite a vote of confidence in Ryan, in giving him some fairly adult
responsibilities.
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