response 27 of 79:

Feb 8 20:45 UTC 1999

How about:
        1) Those familiar with DOS
        2) Those familiar with windowed OSs (Windows, MacOS, etc.)
        3) Those familiar with UNIX (Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, etc.)

Does that make you happier, Rane?  For these purposes, there's no 
functional difference between Windows and MacOS. (How's that for an 
inflamitory statement? :)

response 29 of 79:

Feb 8 21:38 UTC 1999

Isn't the fundamental distinction for #27 GUI and CLI? But I'm not sure
what the relevance of this is to Grex as it stands. Grex is essentially
a CLI, with moves away from that with menu and, definitely, with Backtalk.

response 31 of 79:

Feb 9 12:13 UTC 1999

I remember *very* clearly when Dave Parks took out the logic in newuser
that made people type in their interrupt character.  It was not pretty.
It's quite amazing, really, that some of the world's most common
terminal programs do such screwy things with ^C - but they do.  Making
something simplier does not always make it easier to learn.

response 33 of 79:

Feb 9 21:12 UTC 1999

Odd.  Every term program I've ever used on every OS I've ever used has 
used ^C and not done anything strange with it.

response 35 of 79:

Feb 9 23:02 UTC 1999

Windows 3.1 Terminal uses ^C for copy.

response 37 of 79:

Feb 10 05:57 UTC 1999

        I'd rather ask why the basic choices outlined above are
        somehow unacceptable..

        It covers the 4|5 major incoming systems, and it makes their
        solutions simple. That they should read a manpage is never an
        issue.. Any idiot should be aware of man-pages as the *nix
        alternative to "hlp" files.. Unfortunately, most man-pages
        were written by eithe illiterates, or - more politely:
        "programmers too busy to learn to write".

        Offer the choices, 1-5, and list the hilights of what keys it
        means.. If they are lost, the magic name *IS* listed, and if
        they are NOT - then they can resolve it AFTER THE FACT.

        In fact... choice #6 could be:

                "screw up your keys with customization, instead"

response 39 of 79:

Feb 10 17:13 UTC 1999

        Yeah, I see your point.. But it becomes then a question of how in
        the world to acquire the info from folks that are, at best,
        blithely unaware of what the question even is..

        ..Or, MicroSoft is so accepted and prevalant that they are all
        presuming that you KNOW they are using 'Doze.. OTOH, the question
        seemed to ask about their _computer_ - and that, as I think of it
        myself, is the hardware (although I'll certainly admit that the
        software is what makes it all glue together).

        Now, it's been a couple years since I first had interest in it,
        but... I seem to recall that telnet clients & hosts can perform
        bidirectional barter as to operations-parameters.. It's a
        longshot, (and I really cringe at the thought), but.. is it both
        possible and advisable to have the host query the hell outta'
        their client? I'd hate to rely on this, but.. If it occured BEFORE
        the keys-selection point, then the program might be able to make
        better guesses - and offer improved choices - which the operator
        could then select with some confidence.. Or, use the information
        acquired to make better choices/customization..

        I'm not sure this entire topic is worth the effort, but I do know
        that having to diddle-dick with stty and setenv TERM... can be
        harrowing - particularly if either side decides to "take a day
        off", and default to something bizzare (mnet's still-prevalent
        ^J is-a-return, for example...)

response 41 of 79:

Feb 11 14:25 UTC 1999

        hehe - Janc has some code that is the epitomy of "simplified",
        but I won't suggest using his time.. If I might, I'd be
        interesting in kibitzing/contributing - snot like mnut wants
        such a contrib..

        Might still behoove us to ask in agora/motd - or even do a bit
        of a search thru the .login's to see what settings are the
        most popular.. 

        Frankly, never having owned (or wanted) a Mac, and being now
        Doze-free, I'd need some data to work from.. It seems to me that
        - any way you want to slice it - you are still looking at
        "pick doze/mac/*nix/<whatever> & 'be a mensch!'"

response 43 of 79:

Feb 14 17:08 UTC 1999

        Right, tis why I asked for a bit of data.. I've gone completely
        to linux, so I can adjust whatever to whatever (and look at man   
        pages while puzzling anythingo out, too).

        All I can say is: if the keystroke issues are not being addressed
        in the current incarnation, then they need to be handled 
        differently. Now, if the telnet stuff can actually converse w/o
        user intervention for this initialization, then fine: go that 
        route. Otherwise, it's going to get bloody.

        A menu of "recognized perversions" is as valid as anything else.


        As far as their shell, *sigh* I think I run one myself maybe 2 or
        3 times a year - trying to remember something I want or need to
        run ..perhaps to change my shell.

        Were you to default to a bbs-shell, you'd get mnut-like
        bullshit-postings that make no sense and require regular
        applications of "forget".. Not a pretty sight, although
        occasionally valued for comic-relief.

        The [new]menu-shells are.. Well, suffice to say I don't care for
        'em and they sure seem to be resource hogs.. Unlike something like
        X or Doze on your own comp, the menu's on remote systems tend to
        be useless little things that let goofballs play games, or run
        talk. 

        Be that as it may, some folks still can't live w/ a mere CLI.. 
        That however, is an issue beyond the keystrokes/termcap stuff
        and deserves to be addressed as well as the termcap settings.

response 45 of 79:

Feb 14 21:16 UTC 1999

The new menu system is not a resource hog.  BBS usage would be more expensive
an application.

response 47 of 79:

Feb 16 17:51 UTC 1999

Um, all shells fork off a pile of stuff.  That's fundamentally what they
are for.

response 49 of 79:

Feb 19 13:10 UTC 1999

        Moreover, a number of people have more than one method of access.  I
do, so I've a personal stake in it, but I know of a number of people that
access GREX through lab computers, and then again at home.  

        The only solution I can think of for this is to assign a stty group
to each IP address a person might telnet in from;  thanks to DHCP-assigned
addresses, this might not be feasible.

response 51 of 79:

Mar 4 23:02 UTC 1999

If someone asked me what kind of computer I had I would look at the computer
and write down Zenith.  If I had a memory I would write Zenith 148-2.  If I
knew more about computers I would write IBM PC clone, or 8088.  If the answer
is supposed to come from a specific list of answers, why not offer a list of
choices?
        When will newuser be simplified?  Jim has had to do the actual signup
for everyone we signed up, or set me the task of choosing all the default
settings.  We have two Freebie ads running for PC and Mac basic computers for
$25 with modem, for free email.  If they want help signing up it will be $6
for the first month's membership, paid to grex.  We will do the signup and
give lessons.  And sign them up for csh, and start them with email, and write
a little script to put them directly into PINE.  It takes a few months to get
beyond that stage if you are new to the internet.