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| Author |
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| 25 new of 378 responses total. |
tod
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response 262 of 378:
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Mar 9 22:06 UTC 2006 |
We are jep.
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edina
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response 263 of 378:
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Mar 9 22:07 UTC 2006 |
Ok, well this isn't the item where you and John act out some gay
porn/political fantasy, ok? This is the item where we talk about how society
handles obesity - good, bad, whatever.
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slynne
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response 264 of 378:
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Mar 9 22:12 UTC 2006 |
resp:250 Denial is a funny thing. I dont think I am in denial about
smoking and I think a big part of that is that there is consistant
research that shows that there is a negative health consequence to
smoking and that it is significant. There are some studies that show
that smoking isnt too bad for you but all of them were conducted by
tobacco companies so I feel ok about not considering them as valid as
the other studies.
And I am not in denial that severe obesity (more than 100lbs overweight
which is a catagory I fall into) is a health risk for certain things. I
have read studies that have shown that obesity is a risk if one has to
have surgury. It is a risk for certain types of cancer. It is a risk
for heart disease. But it isnt as great of a risk as most people think
and even if it were, there is a LOT of evidence that shows that other
than gastric bypass surgury there are no weight loss methods that have
acceptable rates of success for me. The best one anyone here has
presented is that if a person goes on a medically supervised very low
calorie diet, they will lose a very small amount of weight (if they are
average). But I have been on very low calorie diets and I know that
they make me feel bad and I am not willing to live my life that way for
some kind of unconfirmed health benefit.
Beware about common sense, btw. It is often wrong. On an unrelated side
note, if you want a really fun read that is full of examples about how
common sense is often wrong and how once one reads the numbers, a
different conclusion comes up, get _Freakonomics_.
resp:251 I absolutely feel comfortable in my own skin. But that doesnt
mean that I like being treated in a negative way because of my weight.
It doesnt mean that I dont know that my life would be a lot easier in
some ways if I were thin. I think I probably have a better self-esteem
than a lot of people including a lot of thin people. I certainly am
able to handle being accused of "being in denial" when I say that I
dont think that I am lazy or undisciplined because I am fat. I dont
think my weight is a character flaw. I even think I am kind of
beautiful although I also, at the same time, recognize that most other
people probably dont think so.
resp:258 I think Brooke has made this a little more personal than I
would have liked and it does bother me a little bit that whenever there
is a discussion about weight discrimination and prejudice, someone will
always accuse the fat people of being in denial. That happens in almost
every weight discrimination discussion I have ever been in. Truthfully,
I expected it when I first entered this item. I think it is because a
lot of the negative feelings about weight are very ingrained and people
dont give them up easily. They are faced with a choice. Because I
refuse to believe that being fat is as unhealthy as most people think
and because I believe that being fat is a state of being that people
dont have as much control over as they think, they either have to agree
with me or they have to think that I am in denial. There are almost
certainly a lot more people here than tod and edina who think I am in
denial about this. I expect that. Challenging common prejudices is very
hard. But all in all, I dont think she is belittling me. I certainly
dont feel belittled.
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keesan
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response 265 of 378:
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Mar 9 22:42 UTC 2006 |
I am happy that you quit smoking, slynne and todd. My new upstairs neighbor
is trying to quit. Something changed recently and the smoke is getting into
my apartment. I thought we had sealed off all access to my apartment and we
are not using the heating ducts. Today while she was running the furnace we
were airing out my apartment all afternoon. Luckily it was in the 50s and
the doors wide open were sort of nice. I could live with an overweight
upstairs neighbor even though the floor creaks, unless she fell through the
floor or the stairs.
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tod
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response 266 of 378:
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Mar 9 22:49 UTC 2006 |
And I am not in denial that severe obesity (more than 100lbs overweight
which is a catagory I fall into) is a health risk for certain things. I
have read studies that have shown that obesity is a risk if one has to
have surgury. It is a risk for certain types of cancer. It is a risk
for heart disease. But it isnt as great of a risk as most people think
I think 35 lbs over is obese and 100 lbs over is "morbidly obese".
Certainly the threats to life are mostly related to heart disease but the
risks to health are much greater when one is morbidly obese. I don't consider
those facts some sort of prejudice or folklore. Knee problems are very common
for the morbidly obese. Enlarged heart by itself should be enough to get a
person into the doc let alone knowing your cholesterol levels.
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richard
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response 267 of 378:
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Mar 9 22:53 UTC 2006 |
sometimes you can live the perfect life and it still doesn't matter. Dana
Reeve, Christopher Reeve's wife, died this week at age 47. Of lung cancer.
She had never smoked in her entire life and stayed in great shape. It didn't
matter. A person who has surgery and loses 200lbs can still get hit by a bus
outside the hospital. slynne could diet her whole life and still not live
a day longer than had she never dieted. You shouldn't spend your whole life
trying to make things perfect, when things can never BE perfect. There is
not a perfect weight, height or hair color. All you can do is enjoy your
existence in the moment, and BE in that moment, as opposed to constantly
thinking about the next moment.
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tod
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response 268 of 378:
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Mar 9 22:56 UTC 2006 |
That's a neat hippy dippy approach, richard...if you're a selfish ass that
thinks nobody else matters in your life. Its borderline Christian, imo.
"Fate will run things so why should I bother"
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richard
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response 269 of 378:
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Mar 9 23:02 UTC 2006 |
its not borderline christian, its borderline buddhist. or existentialist.
consider if a guy saves all his life for retirement, and the day before he
retires, he drops dead. instead of being in the moment, he spent all his life
preparing for a moment that never came. Life is too random and too short to
NOT live in the moment.
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tod
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response 270 of 378:
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Mar 9 23:04 UTC 2006 |
Like I said...selfish
You don't consider if the guy wants to leave it behind for his kids or wife
or siblings or parents or whomever.
SELFISH, richard.
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rcurl
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response 271 of 378:
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Mar 9 23:04 UTC 2006 |
So the way to really live is to shorten life intentionally?
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naftee
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response 272 of 378:
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Mar 9 23:37 UTC 2006 |
i started re-reading this item, and sort of whoa-ed at resp:8 .
>My grandma had to get both hips replaced.
she has two hips ?? both which had to be replaced due to arthritis ?
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tod
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response 273 of 378:
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Mar 9 23:39 UTC 2006 |
She had each hip replaced, yea. She's long since passed away.
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naftee
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response 274 of 378:
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Mar 10 00:10 UTC 2006 |
RIP :(
also, slynne ! you should stop eating pancakes.
substitute wild rice, or something.
i eat pancakes maybe once every THREE months ?!L if that ?
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richard
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response 275 of 378:
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Mar 10 00:52 UTC 2006 |
re #271 no rcurl, I didn't say anything about intentionally shortening
one's life. What I'm saying is that life isn't a race and there is no
finish line and, unless you believe in an afterlife which I do not,
there is no glory at the end. The only glory as I see it is simply
BEING in the game. If you can't win and you can't lose, and you are
going to die at the end anyway, you may as well just enjoy the
moments. Because those moments are all you have.
Slynne is choosing not to live her life dieting and pursuing some goal
or end that may never come, and won't matter in the long run even if
it does come. She is choosing to BE in her moment and enjoy being in
that moment in and of and for itself.
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rcurl
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response 276 of 378:
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Mar 10 02:30 UTC 2006 |
I still think it doesn't hurt to take moderate action to extend one's
enjoyment of the one life one has. I did, and it has been very good I did.
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slynne
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response 277 of 378:
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Mar 10 04:01 UTC 2006 |
resp:266 Ok, what are the risks? Like in a group of a 100 people who are
morbidly obese, how many of them will be dead by the time they are say
70 compared to a similar group of people of what you consider to be a
healthy weight. This seems to be a difficult statistic to find but it
seems kind of essential to me. I appreciate your good intentions though.
resp:275 Yes, we are all going to die in the end. Which reminds me of a
stat someone once threw at me (with nothing to back it up of course).
They said, "You are fat and fat people have a 50% greater chance of
dying" I couldnt help myself and I said, "So? I have a 150% chance of
dying?" which got a blank stare.
resp:276 I dont think it hurts to take moderate action to extend the
enjoyment of one's life. But I dont think that the kind of weight loss
diet that would be required for me to stay thin is moderate. I also have
not seen any evidence that it would have any effect on the length of my
life. In fact, considering how stressed out I get when I try to lose
weight and considering the known health risks of stress, it might
actually be healthier for me to stay fat.
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klg
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response 278 of 378:
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Mar 10 04:02 UTC 2006 |
(254: Quit calling RW and idiot. That's my job.)
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rcurl
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response 279 of 378:
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Mar 10 06:33 UTC 2006 |
"Obesity, when measured by relative weight (actual weight as a percentage of
average or desirable weight for a given height/age/sex group) has an adverse
effect on longevity. Convincing evidence of this has been evaluated in four
very large insurance studies (1903 to 1979), the Framingham 30-Year Followup
Study, the American Cancer Society Study, and other smaller cohort studies."
from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=hstat4.section.1107
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slynne
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response 280 of 378:
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Mar 10 12:13 UTC 2006 |
I dont understand the numbers on that page. What is a "mortality ratio"?
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jep
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response 281 of 378:
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Mar 10 14:28 UTC 2006 |
Lynne, I didn't think Brooke was belittling you. I think her
suggestion that you seem to me rationalizing your choices was natural
and not all that personal.
I don't mean to belittle you, either. I am just as fat as you are.
(I'm right about where I was the last time I saw you, when you gave me
that mattress several years ago.) I am doing nothing whatsoever about
it. I can excuse my choice in any number of ways.
I am perfectly happy with my weight -- and that's all that should
matter to anyone. If you're happy, then there's no need to apologize
to anyone or to explain yourself. That's my opinion. I can walk for a
day at the zoo, I can make it up the stairs at night, I can do all of
the things I need to do. I wish I were thinner about 1-2 times per
year because of something I can't do.
I've been following the discussion, and found it interesting.
One thing I thought you could have commented on, but didn't. I think
society hates fat *women*. I don't think there's nearly as much
disdain for fat men. I go swimming with my kid in the summer, and/or
in indoor pools. No one has ever made a comment to me about "look at
the tubby man". No one looks at me like it'd be better for everyone if
I'd go away.
Now, no teenaged girls swoon with lust as I walk by, either, as they
might if I were 80 pounds lighter and tan and muscular. But they don't
make vomiting sounds. They just stare at the teenaged boys. It is
doubtless better that way for everyone around.
Overweight women get much, *much* different treatment.
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slynne
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response 282 of 378:
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Mar 10 15:50 UTC 2006 |
resp:281 - jep, you are no where near as fat as I am. You are probably
40lbs overweight. I am more like 140lbs overweight.
It is true that fat women get judged more harshly than fat men and face
more fat prejudice. But that is based more on the notion that fat is
ugly and that women should be judged more on their looks than men. But
fat men *do* get judged on their weight even if it is to a lesser
degree. I guess I wasnt sure it would be a good idea to talk about
sexism *and* fat-hatred in the same item.
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keesan
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response 283 of 378:
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Mar 10 16:24 UTC 2006 |
I managed to view Rane's URL with links (needed javascript).
I think it is saying that if you weight 65-75% of average weight you are 5%
more likely to die within a given period. If you weigh 75-95% of average you
are 93% as likely to die, implying that average people weigh more than is
health for them (in this group of people anyway, in the US). If you weight
145-155% of average (50% above average, average being somewhat heavier than
is health) you are 211% as likely to die (about twice as many people will die
if they should have weighed 150 lb to be average and they weight 225 lb, or
75 lb overweight). If you should have weighed 150 lb but weigh 155-165% of
that, call it 160%, and therefore weigh 240 instead (90 lb overweight), you
are more than twice as likely to die as someone average. This was for men
ages 15-39. This was if they kept track of people for only 5 years.
If they followed them up for 15-22 years, people who were 10% or so above the
average weight, and had 10% higher chance of dying within 5 years, had 69%
higher chance of dying within 15-22 years, meaning that if the average weight
for you is 150 lbs, a healthier weight (80%) would be 120 lb (that is probably
me at 5'5"), and if I weighed 10% extra (165 lb) I would be 69% more likely
to die than someone who weighed 150 lb, within 15-20 years, and somewhat less
likely if I weighed 120 lb (and were a man currently aged 15-29, of course).
I think this implies that moderate overweight causes a moderate increase in
chance of dying young (which is low to start with so even doubling does not
make much difference), but as you get into your fifties and sixties, the
cumulative effects of being even 10% above average (which is already
overweight) cause people to die with twice the frequency of people who are
not overweight. This can be from increased frequency of cancer due to poor
diet (colon cancer, breast cancer), from circulatory problems, diabetes.
Even if you don't die, you are more likely to have joint problems (knee
replacements, bad back), sleep apnea due to fat interfering with air intake.
I agree with slynne that people should not ridicule someone with a health
problem, and that it is sometimes genetic/metabolic, and losing weight is not
easy, but I don't agree that people should give up trying. Counting calories
is not the best way of dieting, unless it serves to educate people about which
types of food are high in calories and should mostly be avoided. A friend
losing weight successfully with the most recent Weight Watchers' diet says
there are categories of food she can eat in unlimited amounts, such as whole
grains (despite having carbohydrates they digest slowly and make you feel
full) as long as she does not eat until it hurts. Most vegetables and fruits
are okay. Things made of flour, even whole-wheat, are not, they digest too
quickly. Liquids should be non-caloric (drink water). A neighbor is losing
weight because his doctor told him to stop drinking alcohol.
Overweight people as a category probably get less exercise, which can skew
the statistics. I agree that fat people who exercise are in some ways
healthier than lazy thin people who don't exercise.
Quitting smoking has to be much more effective in improving health than any
kind of diet. Good luck keeping it up, lynne.
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richard
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response 284 of 378:
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Mar 10 16:26 UTC 2006 |
Here's a link to a body mass index table, at the national heart, lung and
blood institute:
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/bmi_tbl.htm
What is your body mass index?
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richard
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response 285 of 378:
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Mar 10 16:28 UTC 2006 |
note that this site says the BMI numbers categorize as follows:
Underweight Below 18.5
Normal 18.5 - 24.9
Overweight 25.0 - 29.9
Obesity 30.0 and Above
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jadecat
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response 286 of 378:
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Mar 10 16:32 UTC 2006 |
One of my role-models for weight loss is an lj person. A little over a
year ago she decided that she was tired of being so obese. She didn't
like having to ask for a seat-belt extender for flights, or that getting
up from sitting on the ground was difficult. So she simply did something
about it. She began working out on a nordic track every day. Then once
the weather got warm she added biking to the nordic track workouts. Over
the summer she logged over 1000 miles on her bike.
With the work outs and only varying her diet slightly- not starving
herself only working with portion control and with more 'healthy' foods-
she managed to lose a substantial amount of weight. She's healthier and
much happier. Her post about how amazing it was to fly and NOT need the
seatbelt extender was wonderful to read.
She's not 'thin' by any means- but she's also not done yet and is still
working out and is still working on improving her diet. Her husband is
also on this journey- running instead of biking. His posts bitching
about how much he dislikes the workout - he doesn't ever get that
'runner's high'- but he likes the effects. So he keeps going.
Both of these two are entertaining writers to read anyway, but their
'get in shape' journey has been quite helpful and inspiring.
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